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 Post subject: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:01 pm 
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I received an email from Senator Dave Lawson today, I’m sure you did also.

Upcoming Hearings propose new regulations for firearms possession within Delaware state parks, wildlife areas, and state forests



The Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control (DNREC) and the Delaware Department of Agriculture (DDA) have proposed new regulations expanding the scope of legal possession of firearms within Delaware's state parks, state wildlife areas and state forests. Both agencies submitted the proposed regulations for publication in the Feb. 1 Monthly Register in response to a Dec. 7, 2017 Delaware Supreme Court decision that overturned a Superior Court ruling and expanded the scope of visitors' ability to possess firearms in Delaware's state parks under DNREC's authority and state forests which are under the DDA's jurisdiction.

Following the Court's decision to invalidate existing regulations limiting firearms in those state lands, DNREC and DDA earlier issued interim regulations which went into effect on Dec. 26, 2017. The interim regulations, issued by Orders of the DNREC and DDA Secretaries, respect the State Constitutional provisions on firearms cited by the Supreme Court in its ruling, by implementing the State's interest in ensuring public safety in a less restrictive manner. Interim regulations are effective for 120 days, with the possibility of a 60-day extension, for a total of 180 days before new regulations must be promulgated.

The proposed regulations by DNREC and DDA, pursuant to the Supreme Court ruling, state that visitors may legally possess firearms, as allowed by Delaware law, in state parks, wildlife areas and forests unless they are prohibited by law due to a past conviction for a violent crime, active Protection from Abuse Order, or mental health commitment. This would include, for example, trails, unguarded beaches, parking lots, and vehicles. The proposed regulations prohibit firearms only in certain public facilities and designated areas such as park offices, visitor centers, nature centers, bathhouses, stadiums and facilities while used for events, museums, zoos, stables, educational facilities, dormitories, playgrounds, camping areas, swimming pools, guarded beaches, and water parks. Proposed regulations call for these designated areas to be identified by appropriate signage.

The proposed regulations allow holders of valid Delaware concealed-carry permits to carry within parks, including designated areas, provided only that the permit be produced upon request. The regulations would further allow active-duty law and qualified retired law enforcement officers to carry anywhere within the parks and other areas affected by Supreme Court decision.

The proposed regulations can be found on the DNREC website at: http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/Admin/Doc ... orests.pdf.

A public hearing on the proposed regulations will be held March 12 at 6 p.m. in DNREC's Richardson & Robbins Auditorium, 89 Kings Highway, Dover, DE 19901. Public workshops on the proposed regulations will be held in February in all three counties in advance of the March 12 public hearing. The dates, times and locations of the workshops are:
New Castle County: Thursday, Feb. 15, 6 p.m., DNREC offices, 391 Lukens Drive, New Castle, DE 19720
Kent County: Tuesday, Feb. 20, 6 p.m., DNREC R&R Auditorium, 89 Kings Highway, Dover, DE 19901
Sussex County: Thursday, Feb. 22, 6 p.m., Sussex Central High School Auditorium, 26026 Patriots Way, Georgetown, DE 19947

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:55 am 
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Going Down swinging...

The list of certain restricted places is certainly long.

Oh, and the obligatory carveout.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:59 am 
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Nope. They will just get this overturned also.

That list is a problem the Delaware Supreme Court mentioned as being a violation. It is too broad.

Then there is the line where the court said that they failed to identify where they got the authority to regulate in the first place. These rules don't address that at all.

And then there is this part 21.1.7. "Papers please" was already found unconstitutional on the national level.

Quote:
21.1.7 Any person possessing a firearm shall display identification upon request, sufficient to enable a law enforcement officer to undertake a background check.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:06 am 
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Remembering DC, I think you're an optimist, though I hope you're correct.

Based on the original post above, it seems that dnrec's list of new rules is also lacking consideration of the result of the case.

Sounds like you can park in the lot, or walk a trail, but all the interesting places, like campgrounds, beaches with life guards, the bath houses to wash up after fishing or swimming and such,are all no-go, GFZ. At least for OC. Maybe I read it wrong, or i am reading too much into it.

I hope the folks and lawyer that pushed the case are there for the feedback session. I Hope the bridgeville rpc and crew have a chance to speak.

Gotta love a2a bureaucrats.

Owen wrote:
Nope. They will just get this overturned also.

That list is a problem the Delaware Supreme Court mentioned as being a violation. It is too broad.

Then there is the line where the court said that they failed to identify where they got the authority to regulate in the first place. These rules don't address that at all.

And then there is this part 21.1.7. "Papers please" was already found unconstitutional on the national level.

Quote:
21.1.7 Any person possessing a firearm shall display identification upon request, sufficient to enable a law enforcement officer to undertake a background check.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Don't forget the first public hearing is this Thursday in New Castle County!

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Given how the majority opinion discussed camp grounds heavily, it's a testament to the ignorance and arrogance of the dnrec and dda that they want to prohibit those places. ***edit, it appears that only the state parks are mentioning the ban on the camp grounds.

Their opinion also mentioned places where activities were at your own risk. Seems SCoDE had much more in mind than just wooded trails and parking lots.

Give'm hell folks!

Also notice they deny out of state permit holders where gen pub is not permitted. Only allowing Delaware resident cc. Lots of out of state folks use the campgrounds and park areas.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:12 am 
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Anyone attend this meeting and have any updated info? Or are things still being formulated?


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:07 am 
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Phil, Matt and I were in attendance for the NCC workshop. There were also about 10 other people there as well as the following..

-DNREC Attorney
-Head of F&W Dave Saveikis
-Head of Parks & Rec Ray Bivens
-DDA Forestry (didn't rightly catch the name...Kyle?)
F&W Officer Lt. John McDerby
F&W K9 Officer Chelsea Allen (w/o her partner River :( )
F&W Officer John ? (WCC enforcement head)

https://news.delaware.gov/2018/03/01/pu ... -12-dover/

Presentation: http://www.dnrec.delaware.gov/Admin/Doc ... tation.pdf

If you take a few moments to read and digest the offered info, you will see that:

1. DNREC is trying to tote these regulations as "more than fair" based solely on their configuration of available space ratios. In fact, what they are restricting is the more densely populated areas that the typical person will be utilizing/visiting. DNREC's lawyer kept spewing out the space ratio formula and also that "the court told them that the places they are looking to restrict were perfectly reasonable" when, in fact, the court only gave them some arbitrary suggestions of what divisions such as National Parks follows.

2. They are not restricting all carry, only OPEN CARRY of firearms in these densely populated areas. If you are qualified LEO/Military or a CCDW holder, then you are more than...LOL, okay more like begrudgingly welcome to legally carry your firearm concealed as it pertains to DE state law (of which he was sorely in need of an education on). Even the proposed allowances of CC into these restricted areas had many gray areas and left a lot of legal wiggle room...in their favor, of course.

3. The proposed regulations leave a lot of conflicting areas unanswered such as during hunting seasons, while out on DE waterways, firearms in vehicles in these restricted areas, etc. There were more than a few raised eyebrows and stammering responses when John Q. Public (us)brought these to light during the Q&A session.

4. The workshops were not intended as a "make your voice heard" type of forum. Astro labeled it spectacularly clear as the "Dog & Pony Show." These workshops were an information session on what they were going to do regardless of what our concerns are. They did conduct an open Q&A session to hear our concerns and questions but they were not made as part of a public record. That will be done at the hearing next week on March 12th.


After the meeting, I wasn't going to further respond to this thread or bring this up because I wanted to see if anyone here was genuinely concerned or even vaguely interested in these "revised regulations" as DNREC affectionately refers to them as. I will say that I was highly disappointed in the feeble turnout at the workshop. I know that they had 2 other workshops in the southern counties and I do not know what the turnout for those were but I would suspect that they weren't much different than this one. I know that this is a forum, not a club or organization, but IMO if people really are as concerned and passionate as they say they are online, then I'd expect those people to be willing to do the grunt work and actually show up to represent the firearms community that their proud to be a part of. I can't help but feel like the general consensus is, after the courts overturned the historical regulations, a picture of Eeyore sitting on a hillside waving a tiny penant flag that says "Yay". I really, really hope that the hearing next week is a major difference than what I saw at the workshop meeting.

Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.
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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:28 am 
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Here is a snippet of the info on how to send in comments if you can't make the March 12th meeting. You can email Lisa.Vest@state.de.us your comments.

Quote:
DNREC and DDA held public workshops last month in all three counties in advance of the March 12 public hearing. The hearing record on the proposed amendments opened Feb. 1 and will remain open until 4:30 p.m. March 27. Comments on the proposed regulations will be accepted by US mail addressed to: Lisa Vest, Hearing Officer, DNREC, 89 Kings Highway, Dover, DE 19901 and by email sent to Lisa.Vest@state.de.us. Comments also may be presented either orally or in writing at the March 12 public hearing.

The proposed amendments are available for public view at DNREC’s offices at 89 Kings Highway, Dover, DE 19901 or DDA’s offices at 2320 South DuPont Highway, Dover, DE 19901. They can also be found on DNREC’s website and in the Feb. 1, 2018 edition of the Delaware Register of Regulations.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming DNREC Public Hearings- firearms possession
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:01 am 
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Owen wrote:
Here is a snippet of the info on how to send in comments if you can't make the March 12th meeting. You can email Lisa.Vest@state.de.us your comments.

Quote:
DNREC and DDA held public workshops last month in all three counties in advance of the March 12 public hearing. The hearing record on the proposed amendments opened Feb. 1 and will remain open until 4:30 p.m. March 27. Comments on the proposed regulations will be accepted by US mail addressed to: Lisa Vest, Hearing Officer, DNREC, 89 Kings Highway, Dover, DE 19901 and by email sent to Lisa.Vest@state.de.us. Comments also may be presented either orally or in writing at the March 12 public hearing.

The proposed amendments are available for public view at DNREC’s offices at 89 Kings Highway, Dover, DE 19901 or DDA’s offices at 2320 South DuPont Highway, Dover, DE 19901. They can also be found on DNREC’s website and in the Feb. 1, 2018 edition of the Delaware Register of Regulations.



Thanks Owen.. I should have referenced that as well. On the same note, any comment/argument that is submitted via snail mail or email will officially be part of the leagal hearing's public record. It is an excellent way to make your voice heard and counted if you cannot physically make the hearing or do not get a chance to speak at the hearing.

Another excellent clarification that Astro made is this; DNREC is restricting the practice of Open Carry in these proposed areas for one major reason, to protect their cash cow! These are the areas that visitors both local and out-of-state will be patronizing during the open season (mid March to mid November) and where DNREC makes the majority of it's revenue. They do not want to lose their $$ if their money-toting visitors may be scared off by the perfectly legal, law-abiding citizen and the scary gun they may see. We all know the arguments for/against open carry so I won't go into them again. DNREC's lawyer brought up a point that some of these restricted places weren't accessible to the public anyway so there's no impact to John Q. Public. I stated several times that the fact of the matter is, in these areas where DNREC is choosing to regulate firearms, it's typically those public places where you will see a denser population of people.. where there's a higher % of an altercation.. where you have a higher % of needing to defend yourself against a threat. There was no discernable reply to that statement, just a redirect tactic to move on to something less uncomfortable.

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