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 Post subject: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:48 am 
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Hello! I'm a new user and long story short I'm getting transplanted from PA to DE (closer to work, lower property taxes). I currently hold a PA LTCF and an AZ CCW permit. I was recently told that if I become a DE resident that my AZ permit which has reciprocity with DE is no longer valid for carrying in DE so by changing my DL I would suddenly be carrying illegally which seems insane. This makes no sense to me. How can they say they have a reciprocity agreement if they don't honor the permit from another state on the list? How is this legitimate? Has anyone attempted to challenge this rule, are there any cases where someone has been nailed for living in DE while carrying a permit from a state with a reciprocity agreement? I'm extremely wary of the DE CCDW process with the flaming hoops they make you jump through. I have no interest in taking out an ad in the paper so I can tell would-be thugs in Wilmington where they can go to steal legally owned firearms, on top of that I don't even know the requisite number of people in New Castle who would be comfortable with signing off on that. Of course that is in addition to the outrageous fees they charge compared to PA. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I've considered just dashboard carrying once I cross into DE, but I think that if I happen to be wearing an empty crossbeed and get stopped by police with a gun on the dashboard they might assume I was concealing and then it would be my word against theirs...and that's not a headache I want either. I'm not sure what to do. I'm almost considering not carrying at all rather than be subject to DE's sillyness. It seems to me if you have a reciprocity agreement with another state they ought to either honor it or not honor it without this gray area which only serves to entrap the law abiding. :banghead:

Am I missing something here? Do I have any other options? Any feedback is greatly appreciated! I'm not sure what to do. I've worked very hard to keep anything that I may or may not own off government lists and I would prefer to keep it that way and honestly DE's process does not seem worth the trouble and I'm sure they planned it that way on purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:30 pm
Posts: 1558
Location: Newark, DE
Welcome to the board!

I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice. The reciprocity section of our law for CCDW licenses specifically states that the reciprocity only applies to permits issued to citizens of other states. If you are a resident of our state then you are expected to follow the permitting process of our state. If you don't want to go through the hoops for a CCDW then as a DE resident your only other option would be OC. That's the position I'm in. I have neither the money nor the inclination to get a CCDW so I just OC.

Quote:
11 Del. C. §1441(j) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Code to the contrary, the State of Delaware shall give full faith and credit and shall otherwise honor and give full force and effect to all licenses/permits issued to the citizens of other states where those issuing states also give full faith and credit and otherwise honor the licenses issued by the State of Delaware pursuant to this section and where those licenses/permits are issued by authority pursuant to state law and which afford a reasonably similar degree of protection as is provided by licensure in Delaware. ...


There was a case recently where a gentleman was carrying on a permit from another state and had changed his license, without realizing that meant his permit was invalid. IIRC he was charged, but the charges were dropped. I don't see any reason why they couldn't follow through to a conviction if they felt like it though. Carrying a concealed deadly weapon without a license is a felony, which means no more guns ever (plus a while in prison).

Every once in a while the topic of changing the licensing process gets talked about, but there are a lot of people that will tell you not to "rock the boat" for fear that we'll end up with lists of where we can and can't carry like some states have.

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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:05 am 
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Think of reciprocity to being similar to a driver license in that they allow folks from other states to drive on that states license.. As such DE only has reciprocity with states that have similar 'requirements', like testing, fingerprinting and proficiency.

Also, like a drivers license when you move you're required to get a license in that state after so many days. I don't know of any state that gives out drivers licenses to non residents. And nobody thinks that's an issue. And DE doesn't give out non resident licenses for CCDW. They do accept out of state residents if they have a valid CCDW that has reciprocity.

Remember there are no rights when it comes to states privileges. They can make up any rules they want. And anything that needs a license is a privilege, thus you have no rights and have to obey the rules. Remember that all licensing is more about tax revenue then anything else. Not all states will issue a CCDW to non residents. That some do makes it so we can travel easier with guns and not need licenses issued by each state we visit.

So, for residents of this state you need a DE CCDW. For non residents you can carry if you have a license that has reciprocity with DE.

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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:08 am 
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I'd be careful and stop concealed carrying if I were you when you get a DE drivers license. The guy who had the trouble in DE with an out of state permit but a DE license was in Middletown when it happened. http://www.delawareonline.com/article/2 ... 307080033/

I agree that the DE CCDW permit process is overly involved and expensive. That is why I open carry. But to be honest concealed permits rub me the wrong way in general. Having the definition of "bear arms" perverted into a privilege instead of a right just because of how you carry is just wrong in my book.

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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:18 am 
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x2 on what they ^^^ said. I do not have the extra coin laying around to obtain a CCDW yet. Until then I OC pretty much everywhere with the exception of a few places. <--Those places are the ONLY reason I will eventually obtain a CCDW.

Welcome to the board... and the state.

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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Location: Newark, DE
Sorry, but you are correct, the minute you got a DE license your other permits are no longer valid to carry concealed in DE.

If you want to avoid the flaming hoops Open Carry is your only option.

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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:10 am
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Location: Newark, DE
Atrumnex, it could be worse. At least you didn't have to relocate to New Jersey. Delaware is a gun owner's paradise compared to NJ. Application, fingerprints, letters of reference, background check, and a 6 month wait just to BUY a gun. And you can forget about carrying.

I would open carry in DE for now, start saving up for your CCDW, and work on references (may find some willing volunteers here). Once you get it you can go back to PA for your non-resident LTCF and you'll be covered in 34 States.


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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:35 am 
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Bullpup wrote:
Atrumnex, it could be worse. At least you didn't have to relocate to New Jersey. Delaware is a gun owner's paradise compared to NJ. Application, fingerprints, letters of reference, background check, and a 6 month wait just to BUY a gun. And you can forget about carrying.

I would open carry in DE for now, start saving up for your CCDW, and work on references (may find some willing volunteers here). Once you get it you can go back to PA for your non-resident LTCF and you'll be covered in 34 States.



He already has a PA LTCF and an AZ CCW. Mostly those would just be a change of address. I'm not even sure you'd need to do that until renewal time.

PA is weird that way even with drivers licenses. I remember when I moved from there to here and somehow they had my new address. Yet still sent me a renewal form to my address in DE.

Ahhh! The good old days before the internet when the government, both federal and state, sent you your forms automatically. Even if by snail mail.(prepaid)

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"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." - Robert A. Heinlein
What a shame that we have the two major political parties that believe the former.


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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:10 am
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Location: Newark, DE
So stephpd, he gets to keep his PA and AZ permits with just an address change? I guess Delaware's CCDW process really does suck compared to most other States. But I'm still happier here than I was in Jersey.


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 Post subject: Re: How are Delaware's reciprocity laws legitimate?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:11 am
Posts: 9
Thanks for all the responses! I'm fine with open carry in PA, but I'm very iffy about doing it in DE without a permit. In PA if my coat falls over my gun and I don't notice it or if I accidentally toss a jacket over the console of my car or whatever I'm still protected by my LTCF if my gun gets accidentally concealed. In DE this does not appear to be the case. I'll be living very close to the PA state line and conducting most of my business in PA, but I can't really OC with the interactions I have to make at work with people on behalf of the company, CC is fine though. I was considering concealing while in PA and then laying the gun on the dash or whatever once I cross into DE, but like I said, in my first post wearing a concealment holster, with a gun in the open on the dash, might present some problems during a traffic stop or something like that since I don't have a permit to fall back on anymore like in PA. What it comes down to is I don't trust possibly anti-gun Wilmington cops in a situation where it's my word against theirs over what is concealed or not concealed unless I'm wearing a mall ninja style drop leg holster or something ridiculous like that. I can afford the CCDW, but it's more the issue of the references and ads in the paper that are the issue with me that I'm not really comfortable with. It just really amazes me that something I've been doing perfectly legally for years will suddenly become illegal because my driver's license changes..even though they are supposed to theoretically honor my AZ permit. It's just absolutely mind blowing that anyone in DE government thinks this is reasonable. I appreciate all of the insight though!


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