Discuss the when's and where's of the next range trip.
 #56763  by Condition1
 
Marker wrote:
Condition1 wrote:
Marker wrote:[...] When you read my post do I sound like a beginner? [...]
Yes.
well since we seem to be all about proof. care to elaborate? or maybe teach this beginner on why the 1911 is still superior to today's modern combat hand guns? I've given loads of info to backup my claims. where is yours? would you also call hundreds of iraq and a-stan vets who share the exact same views as i, and an internationally renowned former SWAT officer and Blackwater contractor, who trains thousands of students every year and teaches them the exact same mindset that he has taught me, and is responsible for my views, a beginner?
Do a search on 1911s this forum and you will find many answers to your questions.
 #56766  by Marker
 
Condition1 wrote:Do a search on 1911s this forum and you will find many answers to your questions.
Wow dude. Congratulations on an epic fail. You did nothing but flounder. You answered nothing I asked. I am well educated on the 1911. I have no questions about it. I want YOU to convince me of it. Tell me why you believe in it so much, like I did with Glock. Tell me why it is still superior 100 years later and should be the go to choice as a self defense weapon, when in the traditional sense has a max capacity of 8 rounds, doesn't like HP's, lots of moving parts, not very simple to disassemble, temperamental, a hammer, grip safety, thumb safety, etc, etc, etc. And what is your response to my other questions. Are all of those gentleman beginners as well?
 #56767  by Condition1
 
Marker wrote:
Condition1 wrote:Do a search on 1911s this forum and you will find many answers to your questions.
Wow dude. Congratulations on an epic fail. You did nothing but flounder. You answered nothing I asked. I am well educated on the 1911. I have no questions about it. I want YOU to convince me of it. Tell me why you believe in it so much, like I did with Glock. Tell me why it is still superior 100 years later and should be the go to choice as a self defense weapon, when in the traditional sense has a max capacity of 8 rounds, doesn't like HP's, lots of moving parts, not very simple to disassemble, temperamental, a hammer, grip safety, thumb safety, etc, etc, etc. And what is your response to my other questions. Are all of those gentleman beginners as well?
Sorry, I have no desire to convince you. But I will tell you this any 1911 user can break down a 1911 to its last pin faster than a Glock, 1911s (good ones) eat any ammo, the safeties are necessary because of the lighter trigger pull and engagement between hammer sear and disconnector, which gives an awesome crispy trigger pull.

You say that you know 1911s, if you did you would know how easy to disassemble and how simple the design is. Not all 1911s are made equal, that is why some are very expensive.

Do a search on the internet to find out which groups (LE) use 1911s, and which 1911s they use.
 #56768  by Marker
 
Condition1 wrote:Sorry, I have no desire to convince you. But I will tell you this any 1911 user can break down a 1911 to its last pin faster than a Glock, 1911s (good ones) eat any ammo, the safeties are necessary because of the lighter trigger pull and engagement between hammer sear and disconnector, which gives an awesome crispy trigger pull.

You say that you know 1911s, if you did you would know how easy to disassemble and how simple the design is. Not all 1911s are made equal, that is why some are very expensive.

Do a search on the internet to find out which groups (LE) use 1911s, and which 1911s they use.
All Glocks, are created equal. You don't have to spend a couple G's to get one that is reliable. It literally takes seconds to field strip a Glock. Seconds. Don't tell me a 1911 strips faster. 1911's are not impossible to disassemble, but compared to a Glock or even an XD there is no comparison. Trigger pull? We're talking about combat weapons. Not an IDPA competition. You keep your trigger pull. I have 16 rounds. All of those safeties and hammer to manipulate are great when your strong arm is shattered, and you need to be able to shoot from behind cover with your weak arm.

I know there are 1911's in use by LEO's. And that is commendable. And let's be real 1911's have evolved. It is not the original design 100%, in the reliable ones you speak of. You gave basic, all around info, you did nothing to make me believe that a 1911 is any better than my Glock for self defense. You say you don't care about convincing me, that is fine, I think maybe you are trying to convince yourself. I know the benefits of modern hand guns and embrace them fully. I do not HATE 1911's. I respect everything they have meant for firearms, I just do not believe in them as the best choice for a combat hand gun, and there is a lot to back up that claim.

Oh, and again you dodged the rest of my questions. Why?
 #56800  by Mr.Skellington
 
Marker wrote:
Mr.Skellington wrote:
Marker wrote: BTW I looked for an article on the XD where a 20,000 round torture test (mud, ice, sand, dropping, no lube etc..) was conducted but most links were dead since the article is from at least 2005. Wanted to know if you had seen that--- spoiler alert, no malfunctions ;)

My last post in this part of the site. That is a torture test. That is not years of proven combat and LEO experience. XD's are not, and never will be a Glock. If I really need to info gather to prove my point I will, but even the most generic Glock vs XD Google search turns up all the proof for Glocks that is needed.

Just for the hell of it I did a search just on KNOWN military using Glocks, didn't even include Law Enforcement and this doesn't account for the millions of them unofficially in service around the globe. Here's what turned up:

Australian Royal Air Force, Austrian Armed Forces, Finland Defense Forces, French Army, French Navy, Georgia Special Forces, Latvian military, Lebanese Army, Lithuanian Armed Forces, Malaysian Armed Forces, Military of Montenegro, Military of the Netherlands, Royal Norwegian Army, Polish Military, Portuguese Marine Corps and Republican National Guard, Swedish Armed Forces...

Oh, and the Swedes chose the Glock over Sigs :o
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/05/03/swis ... ce-pistol/

Guess how many Military units came up for the XD...

Maybe some PD's using them.

That should be sufficient. Again XD's are not Glocks. They're nice little weapons for the weekend warrior, they sell with their gimmicky cheap ass accessories because some people just don't know any better. They have shiny metal mags (not tactical at all). They just are not taken seriously, and are not a real proven service weapon. If you wanna hang your hat on an unproven Croation product, knock yourself out.

I'm sorry but me proving Glock to you over XD is like asking to prove why a real cheese steak is better than steak-ums. Why doesn't someone prove to me why XD's are the "Glock Killer" with something more tangible than a 20,000 rd torture test, good luck, because if that's the best argument for an XD, than I think that says enough already.

Heres a list of flaws to your position
1. You assume that the XD wants to be a Glock or that its a clone... its not.
2. You believe that people are impressed with the appeal to popular opinion, that is, Glocks are popular therefore they must be the best. I'm not persuaded by that or an appeal to authority (a expert likes a glock therefore its the best and so forth). You have to show me technically and empirically why the Glock is the end all be all of the firearms world. The are great however so is the 1911 and yet it has been widely replaced in use by more tolerant and reliable firearms. Don't be so fool hearty to think a Glock can't be surpassed, all things can be improved (unless you've been hopelessly inundated with the "Glock Perfection" slogan).
3. You tossed out the position that Glock is the better than ____ so it is not the responsibility of I or anyone else to support that position and no I'm not going to do your homework for you by googling it. You put it out there now back it up.


The XD takes features of several favorite firearms and merges them to produce IMO a fantastic pistol which can run with the best of any firearm on the market. Just so you know I do acknowledge glocks performance and would be comfortable with one on the nightstand but not on the pedestal many place it. Firearms have changed since glock improved upon the polymer frame design of the HK VP 70 pistol. They have changed so much that Glock isn't the only show in town. Glock can boast about its longstanding reliability record which it has earned but other manufactures are currently producing pistols that are just as good if not better in terms of taking punishment and meaningful features. In time they will have the same record (although never as longstanding as glock which started earlier). The reason for the widespread use of glock by various agencies is debatable especially since the U.S doesn't even select the best performing weapons for issue, they select the most cost effective which meets the minimum requirements.

If you want to fiercely debate this your welcome to but bring facts, proof of technical superiority and keep the everyone else likes it stuff for a different guy.
 #56841  by Marker
 
Mr.Skellington wrote:Heres a list of flaws to your position
1. You assume that the XD wants to be a Glock or that its a clone... its not.
2. You believe that people are impressed with the appeal to popular opinion, that is, Glocks are popular therefore they must be the best. I'm not persuaded by that or an appeal to authority (a expert likes a glock therefore its the best and so forth). You have to show me technically and empirically why the Glock is the end all be all of the firearms world. The are great however so is the 1911 and yet it has been widely replaced in use by more tolerant and reliable firearms. Don't be so fool hearty to think a Glock can't be surpassed, all things can be improved (unless you've been hopelessly inundated with the "Glock Perfection" slogan).
3. You tossed out the position that Glock is the better than ____ so it is not the responsibility of I or anyone else to support that position and no I'm not going to do your homework for you by googling it. You put it out there now back it up.


The XD takes features of several favorite firearms and merges them to produce IMO a fantastic pistol which can run with the best of any firearm on the market. Just so you know I do acknowledge glocks performance and would be comfortable with one on the nightstand but not on the pedestal many place it. Firearms have changed since glock improved upon the polymer frame design of the HK VP 70 pistol. They have changed so much that Glock isn't the only show in town. Glock can boast about its longstanding reliability record which it has earned but other manufactures are currently producing pistols that are just as good if not better in terms of taking punishment and meaningful features. In time they will have the same record (although never as longstanding as glock which started earlier). The reason for the widespread use of glock by various agencies is debatable especially since the U.S doesn't even select the best performing weapons for issue, they select the most cost effective which meets the minimum requirements.

If you want to fiercely debate this your welcome to but bring facts, proof of technical superiority and keep the everyone else likes it stuff for a different guy.

Really. I posted all the military units and mentioned all of the LEO's that use them because THEY test them against the others, THEY decide what is best for them. Those are facts. Those are not opinions. The fact that MANY professionals around the world choose Glock and not XD's are facts, not my opinion. And the point was at the end of the day the Glock is still superior. How long has the XD been around now? 10 years? If they are such a superior product that meshes all of theses great designs, yet somehow still remain unique, Isn't that long enough for them to have maybe started making it into service somewhere other than assaulting the bench at the gun range? The fact that they haven't speaks VOLUMES.

Plain and simple, Gaston Glock's design while ugly and basic (part of what makes it great), was made with combat and service in mind. That is all. It was made to be rugged reliable and no matter what conditions it was in, when it is needed it goes bang. It was made to be picked up and easily fired. It was made so that ANYONE can learn to use it, apply it effectively, maintain and quickly disassemble. It's everything that is needed in a combat hand gun and nothing that isn't. That is what makes it great and technically superior, it was and still is the benchmark. Yes, XD's are a Glock clone. They have tried to "improve" upon Gaston Glocks design of a polymer pistol. This debate is really over man, XD lovers are always trying to make a case for their weapon that is still UNPROVEN where it counts, and that IS a FACT. Until the XD or any other handgun for that matter surpasses what Glock has achieved as the go to duty pistol, whatever you say really holds no merit. When the fighters of the world throw down their Glocks and pick up something better, then maybe I'll start to listen. I personally choose to carry a weapon who's reputation is it's resume, not a weapon that you have to make a case for.

You say that I choose Glock because it's popular, therefor, so should everyone else. Your so blinded by wanting all of this hard data and "facts" that you can't see what is right there in front of you. I, nor anyone else who chooses a Glock, it's not because of popularity, it's because of what makes the weapon so popular. I choose Glock because they are affordable. You get extremely reliable performance and accuracy for that cheap price. Parts and people who can fix them are WIDELY and WORLDLY abundant. Sometimes I think, Glock is a victim of it's own success when it comes to people who really have no knowledge of weapons and what makes the Glock so popular. They always hear about glock, glock, glock. Then they pick one up and it is this ugly, basic, weapon with no fancy stuff or, to the untrained eye, visible safeties. So for a lack of appearance or gimmicks, they think it's not all it's cracked up to be, they can't wrap their mind around something so basic being so heralded. We associate greatness with flash and appearance and accessories, not simplicity. I'm willing to bet that if you were to send 10 people with ZERO firearms knowledge into a gun store, and the only thing laying there was a Glock19 and a XD-M 9mm and told them to choose which weapon was better, I bet just from sheer looks and accessories 9-10 would prob choose the XD. Then I would like to choose 10 more people with the same amount of knowledge and let someone make a case for the XD, and then let someone make a case for Glock, and then let those people choose, I'd be curious to see the results.

You see your not thinking outside of the box. You do not think like a warrior. I know that I can go to just about any shitty corner of this globe and there will be Glocks, and parts to fix them. XD sure as hell can't say that. That's a fact that matters. People see this new weapon come along, you see how it is supposedly better in every way, they show you some cool features, show you that it has a grip safety, that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, it's not one of those evil dangerous Glocks. Oh goodness it has the grip angle of a 1911, but field strips far easier! I mean they say it was MADE for the human hand, omg when you pick it up they're right! It feels like an extension of my arm! This has got to be the best handgun in the world!!! They stamp the Springfield name on it And you jump on it and you believe in this weapon with all that your heart and soul possesses because you know it is has proven itself to be an efficient and reliable weapon on the battle field and on the streets! Oh wait. No it hasn't.... In 10 years it hasn't been proven, anywhere... It hasn't been proven anywhere other than in some videos and in some magazines. Well wait a sec, if it's so awesome why don't the professionals see this as well, and arm their selves with this superior weapon? Oh wait they have tried it? They do know about it? Well I'm confused? Why are they still choosing Glock time and time again? XD's are better and offer so much more, why can't they see that! Well maybe the XD's need another 10 years for people to finally wake up and then maybe the fighters of the world will start using them.

Look man, the technical "superiority" and data compiling and facts that you need to prove to you is so weak and paper thin, of course that is what your gonna say, because that is all you and the XD has to lean on, torture test, design, bullshit manufacturer technical data, oh give me all this technical proof of why glocks are so great, blah blah blah blah. Technical data counts for shit in the trenches. Then when I don't do my "home work" as you say, when I don't give you all these stats, I just give you REALITY, than that obviously proves that your right! PUUULEASE!!!! If REAL WORLD use and abuse isn't enough proof for you, The fact that after everyone trying to knock glock of as the most popular combat handgun in the world throne, and after 20+ years, it still hasn't happened, isn't enough proof for you, the fact that XD has had ten years to make a place in the professional community and still hasn't done it isn't enough proof for you, than I don't know what to say. Your wanting numbers and stats and tech specs, why? It means nothing. They are numbers on paper. Do you know how many things look amazing on paper but just don't make the cut in the real world (this years Eagles...)?

Most people want real world data, yeah it looks good on paper and it passes all the tests but whats it done where it counts? And that is where the XD doesn't measure up, it never will. And there is nothing that you can bring to the table to make it measure up. You and the 1911 dude keep asking me to prove why the Glock is so great, I have given all the proof in the world! Glocks are already PROVEN, and CONTINUE to prove, there IS, nothing else to prove. But neither of you has yet to bring anything tangible to the table to make a case for your weapons. The 1911 has way more going for it in terms of history and being proven in battle than the XD, so he has a lot to back up his theory but chooses to flounder. And you WILL not be able to show anything REAL to back up the XD except for 10 years of excuses of why it's better than Glock. Show ME something, one person who says, I have seen the XD baptized by fire and it came out on top on the battle field. Just because a hand full of PD's use them, that doesn't mean that they are proven. I'm just the type where real world proof goes a long way when it comes to choosing weapons that I'm putting my life on, not opinions and stats. This is the way I choose to back up my claim towards Glock, and if real world proof is not good enough to make a case for something, than sorry, but that's what your getting. Again you still have brought nothing in terms of why the Glock, is NOT so great, and why the XD and others is. And I bet you will have a real hard time doing either. I don't want technical data, because it means NOTHING. Show me REAL PROOF!
 #56845  by Mr.Skellington
 
Our conversation is over then. You have reenforced everything I said in my previous post so thanks for that. Your still asking for me to play the appeal to popular opinion game with you (and even preemptively discredit LEO's who choose XD over Glock :roll: ) but I'm not going to.

I'm not going to discredit Glock either, it has earned a reputation of performance and through that performance it has garnered widespread use. For a long time it was the only show in town. Remember its you making the claims and you who is floundering with coming up with support for those claims.

I read through that long book of a post only to find it was mostly griping about having to back up your claims with something other than 'well lotsa people like em'.

You have a great pistol so does Condition1 as do I. Lets leave it at that for now.
 #56846  by Tactical_P
 
First off i would like to say hello to everyone. it has been some time since i have been on here. i have been on a few time to read some posts but dont feel the need to interject until now.
i would like to point out that i carry both a 1911 combat commander and a glock 19. i love both of them. in my OPINION the glock 19 is the best 9mm on the market. with that said i choose to carry my 1911 99% of the time. that is my personal preference. i like the feel, grip angle, wieght and balance. plus if i do run out of ammo i can beat the BG to death with it.
now i have been reading these posts from Marker that the glock is combat proven. which i dont deny. but marker, you have continuously made a statment that military forces are using them. as far as i know not one of the branches of the U.S. Military uses them (and thats the only one i care about). Seals use sigs, Army SF uses sigs, CAG (delta force) use 1911's and pretty much whatever they want, Marine Recon MEUSOC 1911. O and i forgot to mention i am a former Recon Marine and current service member with 4 deployments under my belt to afgan and iraq and i have never carried a glock into theater.
also to go along with my military training i have been to gunsite academy, one of the best tactical firearms schools in the country.(military funded ofcourse) guess what all of my instructors carried, thats right 1911s.
now you said that the 1911 has changed over the years. that is very true but are there not several diffrent versions of the glock? each having small changes to make an improvement.

now you have remind everyone here about the history of glocks. the 1911 has 100 years of combat proven history and is still going strong.
im not jumping on here to make a huge argument for the 1911 vs glock debate because you are obveously set in your ways and have your own opinions. but thats is all they are. OPINIONS.
the great thing about firearms is that there are thousands of diffrent options out there for everyone and as americans we have the option to choose what is best for us. you cant sit here and claim that what is good for you is good for everyone else. thats just stupid and short sighted.

i personally dont like XD's but i dont fault anyone for owning and defending themselves with one. i love the new M&P 45 with the thumb saftey. maybe thats because they are a mix of my two favorite guns, glocks and 1911s. some may hate them. thats there OPINION.

the most important thing people need to know about self defense is train with what you have and be proficient in it. granted having good equipment is important. i think the op should have spent a little more time and money on his decision. but it sounds like hes happy just using what he bought as a target pistol for now.
 #56859  by knohope
 
Hey Marker, by your assertion I should be using a rotary telephone and driving a K car since that is what most of the govt' institutions of the world still utilize.

Carefully read Mr. Skellington and Tac P's posts.

Although your well scripted posts might hold water with some readers, you can only read these so many times before they start to fade. I'm sure that you have cut and pasted these many times on the fanboy pages and the anti Glock sites that you have visted. I am also surprised it took you so long to get up on your soap box. What was it; six days from the time you joined until you went on the offensive? I'm impressed by your restraint :lol: .

Give it rest dude…