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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:50 am 
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Location: NOT Bear - Christiana Area
NCC wrote:
Quote:
And I think you are entitled to that and someone needs to man up and tell you why they deleted it. In a PM of course.


Again. It's only polite. My mama taught me to answer when I was spoken to. Of course, some didn't like the answers.

Otherwise he might enter it again, and again, and again, and again, always trying to read the mind of The Deleter, hoping against hope to please the Almighty Deleter. Ahhh, to not be deleted. THAT truly must be Nirvana.

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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:22 pm 
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I wouldn't go as far as saying "man up" as that infers that the mod is not a man, and may be taken as insulting or even as a threat. Not a good way of getting your reason.

I understand people want a good reason for a post deletion, but I don't think badgering the mods or name-calling is the way to go (and this might be the reason why you haven't gotten a reason yet). Pretty soon this entire thread will be deleted (by me) if people can't just be patient and professional.

Keep in mind post deletion is at the sole discretion of the mods and does NOT need any prior discussion or reasoning behind it. It might just be that you'll have to accept "no reason" as an answer and move on.

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Co-Founder & Global Moderator
Delaware Open Carry


"You have to be prepared to do the violence in order to survive the violence."


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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:10 pm 
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dave_in_delaware wrote:
Keep in mind post deletion is at the sole discretion of the mods and does NOT need any prior discussion or reasoning behind it. It might just be that you'll have to accept "no reason" as an answer and move on.


I think you probably figured out by now I like to have a little fun. Indeed, the Mod could be a woman, so no offense meant. Honest.

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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:11 am 
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Posts: 1514
Location: Newark, DE
dave_in_delaware wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as saying "man up" as that infers that the mod is not a man, and may be taken as insulting or even as a threat. Not a good way of getting your reason.

I understand people want a good reason for a post deletion, but I don't think badgering the mods or name-calling is the way to go (and this might be the reason why you haven't gotten a reason yet). Pretty soon this entire thread will be deleted (by me) if people can't just be patient and professional.

Keep in mind post deletion is at the sole discretion of the mods and does NOT need any prior discussion or reasoning behind it. It might just be that you'll have to accept "no reason" as an answer and move on.


Since this has been a long-running issue and has come up at several recent dinner meets with different members now, I think it's time I finally said my piece.

If a mod can't explain why they took an action as simple as deleting a post then they don't need to be a mod. If they get their feelings so hurt by a request for info that they can't respond then they don't need to be a mod. If they can't figure out how to reply then they certainly don't need to be a mod.

This board has already seen several waves of long time members leaving en masse due to over-zealous moderation without explanation. An online discussion board requires a critical mass of regular users to sustain regular discussions and to make the board attractive to new members. The "leadership" (as if we actually ever got any input or transparency on who they are, and as if they actually "led" anything on any sort of a regular basis) seems quite intent on purposefully killing off absolutely all support anyone has ever had for this board. Every time someone brings up an idea for holding a rally or taking a pro-active stance on advocating the pro-OC message they get shot down or ignored for wanting to "rock the boat". Discussing relevant news items, without any sort of obvious bigotry or other objectionable content, gets the post deleted and threats made against the poster. This is but the latest in a long line of abuse of the people that have supported this board over the years, and the repeat pattern is telling of the mentality that seems to be going on behind the scenes.

When was the last time we had a specifically pro-OC rally, or had the group represented at events, or tried as a group to push for more favorable laws, or even interacted on an official basis with LE to push for better relations (the annual private retreat for a few members to Pumpkin Chunkin being the exception)? For that matter, when was the last time a monthly dinner meet was actually decided more than a few days before it happened, with adequate advance notice being given to the restaurant and members? Members have tried to step up to take on responsibilities and help this situation, both by helping lead new events and better organizing current meets, and been soundly shot down by the fiefdom mentality around here. Actually I believe the phrase that one of the leaders "threw a hissy fit" was used once. Some members have also had to refuse to take on moderating duties because of how DELOC was being run at the top. The "leadership" has additionally refused to expand in meaningful ways to new technologies and avenues to reach potential new members, such as Facebook and other social media sites. Again, the fiefdom "protect my control over this board at all costs" mentality blocks progress.

While you certainly have the right to restrict posts on a private forum (or more accurately, whoever it is that actually owns DELOC has that right, since you've made it so abundantly clear over the years that this is a privately held company that exists to serve whatever the interests of the owner(s) are, not what the rest of the group wants), you do NOT have the right expect continued support ad infinitum. Just WHY, exactly, should anyone continue to support this forum? Quite often it appears to have a bipolar management of extremes, appearing at one moment leaderless and the next there's mods silently deleting stuff without ever revealing who they are or why they act, and all the while it appears completely directionless. WHY should anyone bother posting here when there are so many other boards to post on? WHY should anyone make time in their busy schedule for poorly organized last-minute dinner meets with dwindling attendance? WHY should anyone commit to volunteering to help a group that seems so disinterested in helping back?

I'd also ask why so many of us have put up with it for so long, but judging by the activity levels recently, I'd say many who were interested in posting have already moved on to greener pastures and the rest are mostly just interested in seeing old friends for dinner.

I think this group really could make a difference pushing for better carry laws and improving public opinion in Delaware, but not on its current pathway to (increasing) irrelevancy. We need a clear set of rules (or, admittedly, as clear as rules for posting on a discussion board can be). We need transparency on who the mods are and why they take action, such as an automatic message to a poster with a brief explanation of what the problem is when a post is deleted. We need to allow for member input to actually help expand the group. Oh, and while I'm wishing upon a star, if this is ever to act more like a local group rather than just a "friends of the owner(s) of DELOC" meeting spot, it would be really nice to have a set of bylaws with elected officers for some functions - perhaps even with voting restricted to a paid membership pool. Show some sort of return & growth for the time and donations people have made over the years.

Just how much has the current direction of this group really turned the tide of public opinion regarding OC in Delaware? How many people, out of the population as a whole, actually are even aware of OC now? Has the group REALLY been doing such a blockbuster job that it should be shielded from change at all costs? Or is there perhaps a better, more open, more transparent, and more engaging way forward? And on which side of that divide does silently sniping posts lie?

And if anyone would like to PM me, I'll let ya know how I REALLY feel! :D

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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:33 pm
Posts: 806
astro_wanabe wrote:
dave_in_delaware wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as saying "man up" as that infers that the mod is not a man, and may be taken as insulting or even as a threat. Not a good way of getting your reason.

I understand people want a good reason for a post deletion, but I don't think badgering the mods or name-calling is the way to go (and this might be the reason why you haven't gotten a reason yet). Pretty soon this entire thread will be deleted (by me) if people can't just be patient and professional.

Keep in mind post deletion is at the sole discretion of the mods and does NOT need any prior discussion or reasoning behind it. It might just be that you'll have to accept "no reason" as an answer and move on.


Since this has been a long-running issue and has come up at several recent dinner meets with different members now, I think it's time I finally said my piece.

If a mod can't explain why they took an action as simple as deleting a post then they don't need to be a mod. If they get their feelings so hurt by a request for info that they can't respond then they don't need to be a mod. If they can't figure out how to reply then they certainly don't need to be a mod.

This board has already seen several waves of long time members leaving en masse due to over-zealous moderation without explanation. An online discussion board requires a critical mass of regular users to sustain regular discussions and to make the board attractive to new members. The "leadership" (as if we actually ever got any input or transparency on who they are, and as if they actually "led" anything on any sort of a regular basis) seems quite intent on purposefully killing off absolutely all support anyone has ever had for this board. Every time someone brings up an idea for holding a rally or taking a pro-active stance on advocating the pro-OC message they get shot down or ignored for wanting to "rock the boat". Discussing relevant news items, without any sort of obvious bigotry or other objectionable content, gets the post deleted and threats made against the poster. This is but the latest in a long line of abuse of the people that have supported this board over the years, and the repeat pattern is telling of the mentality that seems to be going on behind the scenes.

When was the last time we had a specifically pro-OC rally, or had the group represented at events, or tried as a group to push for more favorable laws, or even interacted on an official basis with LE to push for better relations (the annual private retreat for a few members to Pumpkin Chunkin being the exception)? For that matter, when was the last time a monthly dinner meet was actually decided more than a few days before it happened, with adequate advance notice being given to the restaurant and members? Members have tried to step up to take on responsibilities and help this situation, both by helping lead new events and better organizing current meets, and been soundly shot down by the fiefdom mentality around here. Actually I believe the phrase that one of the leaders "threw a hissy fit" was used once. Some members have also had to refuse to take on moderating duties because of how DELOC was being run at the top. The "leadership" has additionally refused to expand in meaningful ways to new technologies and avenues to reach potential new members, such as Facebook and other social media sites. Again, the fiefdom "protect my control over this board at all costs" mentality blocks progress.

While you certainly have the right to restrict posts on a private forum (or more accurately, whoever it is that actually owns DELOC has that right, since you've made it so abundantly clear over the years that this is a privately held company that exists to serve whatever the interests of the owner(s) are, not what the rest of the group wants), you do NOT have the right expect continued support ad infinitum. Just WHY, exactly, should anyone continue to support this forum? Quite often it appears to have a bipolar management of extremes, appearing at one moment leaderless and the next there's mods silently deleting stuff without ever revealing who they are or why they act, and all the while it appears completely directionless. WHY should anyone bother posting here when there are so many other boards to post on? WHY should anyone make time in their busy schedule for poorly organized last-minute dinner meets with dwindling attendance? WHY should anyone commit to volunteering to help a group that seems so disinterested in helping back?

I'd also ask why so many of us have put up with it for so long, but judging by the activity levels recently, I'd say many who were interested in posting have already moved on to greener pastures and the rest are mostly just interested in seeing old friends for dinner.

I think this group really could make a difference pushing for better carry laws and improving public opinion in Delaware, but not on its current pathway to (increasing) irrelevancy. We need a clear set of rules (or, admittedly, as clear as rules for posting on a discussion board can be). We need transparency on who the mods are and why they take action, such as an automatic message to a poster with a brief explanation of what the problem is when a post is deleted. We need to allow for member input to actually help expand the group. Oh, and while I'm wishing upon a star, if this is ever to act more like a local group rather than just a "friends of the owner(s) of DELOC" meeting spot, it would be really nice to have a set of bylaws with elected officers for some functions - perhaps even with voting restricted to a paid membership pool. Show some sort of return & growth for the time and donations people have made over the years.

Just how much has the current direction of this group really turned the tide of public opinion regarding OC in Delaware? How many people, out of the population as a whole, actually are even aware of OC now? Has the group REALLY been doing such a blockbuster job that it should be shielded from change at all costs? Or is there perhaps a better, more open, more transparent, and more engaging way forward? And on which side of that divide does silently sniping posts lie?

And if anyone would like to PM me, I'll let ya know how I REALLY feel! :D



Basically, everything Astro said is how I feel.

Just look at your "membership" numbers.
1485 users registered. How many of those are active, regular posters?
Look at how stagnant the board is.
You, the mods, have lost control here. Truthfully, I only remain here because there are some truly great folks that I have met, but when the time comes for nitty-gritty discussion, robust debate, and potential action that would naturally arise out of such debate, I find there is little, if any. I believe that is because the people have been scared away. Or better yet, "moderated" away.

Heavy-handed moderation, is the surest path to irrelevance. There are people here, who have stuck through your evolution, and despite it all are still around. Some of those folks are willing to engage and take leadership positions and help GROW the group and our efforts.
I believe that DELOC should be a grassroots organization that purposefully ACTS to further the cause. We have a framework here that could be used, if the leaders of this group would just let it be so.

If you think that this is me, Astro, picksix, or any one of a long line of other members on here who've been reprimanded, kicked out, or otherwise , "coming into your house and shitting on the carpet", as I have heard it described, you are wrong.
I view it as someone coming over and politely, but firmly mentioning that your roof shingles are missing, your sidewalk is damaged, your windows are broken, and that there are other houses on your block- bigger, in better shape, and more welcoming to suggestion, assistance, and oversight. This "house" should belong to all of us. We should all care for it and have responsibility to maintain it.
Failure to fix the problems will lead to an ultimate collapse.
I don't think that is what the founders had in mind when they started DELOC.

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Guns that go "Pew-Pew-Pew" = not ok.

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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:49 am
Posts: 477
Location: NOT Bear - Christiana Area
http://www.deloc.org/who.php

All kidding around aside for this one, I never saw this web site, DELOC, as anything more than (predominately! Happy now pick_six?) a forum to discuss the carry of weapons. Nothing in the reading indicates this to be anything other than that. A privately owned forum. It is not an formal organization. There are no bylaws and no elected officers. Just a bunch of mostly friendly folks sharing their knowledge of gun related information. Have I erred?

While I certainly have my opinions, and am not bashful with sharing them, it was never my intent to stir up a shit storm, if that is what I have done. I merely made the point that this is a privately owned forum and messages could be deleted as the owner retains that right. And then I pointed out that unless the moderator doing the deletion does not PM the "offender" with a why then it does not improve, merely continues.

You do not need my permission of course, but any of you could go start a formal organization for Open Carry, Concealed Carry, or even Naked Carry if that is what you wished. One with a charter, bylaws, a mission statement, and elected officers. Maybe even dues to pay for a new forum. Please reach out to me for a donation if you decide to.

Let me leave you with this quote from one of the pages here:
If you have a question, we invite you to ask on our Forums. We are a kind and welcoming group and believe in civil discourse and being respectful of questions and comments that are civilly made, we simply ask that you do the same.

I can play by the rules, I just need to know what the rules are.

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"The purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range." -- Jeff Cooper

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Last edited by NCC on Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:24 am
Posts: 439
As the OP of this thread, and the delete thread, i am just trying to find out if something i posted was wrong. that's all. I've respectfully asked if information could be provided. I reckon I've stirred something up, regardless of of the fact that i had no intention of doing so.

Mod's can read all MY posts and see that i have not been disrespectful at any time

I HAVE NOT SAID:
you owe me an explanation. i only asked, and i believe respectfully.
you should moderate to my liking, or the liking of anyone else aside from the site owner
anyone did anything wrong, although it was implied that i did, based on moderator action.

i started with a simple observation, a thread i started was deleted, and question, did i do something wrong.

i appreciate the support expressed by some in this thread for asking the same question.

to the mod's, if you're pissed at this thread, fine, don't be pissed at me for asking. as i said,i believe i did so in a respectful manner.

if you choose to reply here, or via pm. fine. if not, that's your choice.

mr ncc. you said:

NCC wrote:
http://www.deloc.org/who.php
All kidding around aside for this one, I never saw this web site, DELOC, as anything more than a forum to discuss the carry of weapons. Nothing in the reading indicates this to be anything other than that. A privately owned forum. It is not an formal organization. There are no bylaws and no elected officers. Just a bunch of mostly friendly folks sharing their knowledge of gun related information. Have I erred?
...
.


if you goto this link below and scroll down a little, you will see why you were wrong. check the captions under the section titled general discussion. many of them clearly invite discussion well beyond just open carry in the state of delaware. in particular, there are 5 items then seem to invite discussion: general discussion, news stories, firearms politics & activism, the fox hole, and delaware law discussion.

http://www.deloc.org/forums/

a court room "prank" where a bailiff draws down on a prosecutor at the request of another prosecutor, potentially resulting in all bailiffs being stripped of the ability to carry a firearm in the performance of their duties. a "prank" which would have landed JohnQ in jail, or worse... and so on..

seems to fit all the categories above, and maybe even a few others.

the other story referenced in my original post:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... l/8651517/

oh well, be this all as it is, the horse is dead. feel free to keep beating.


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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:07 pm 
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Spot on, Astro. I remember there was a time when I was actually motivated to be involved, productive, and helpful to the group. Now I barely have enough interest to even log on, for months at a time. Why bother?

Imagine how much time we've wasted. What we could have been doing. The people we could have influenced. The ideas we could have employed.

Sort of surprised this thread has lasted this long. We better not crack a joke about cops/donuts, or whole thing will disappear pretty quick.

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 Post subject: Re: disappearing posts.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 8:47 am 
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Posts: 1857
Location: Bear, Delaware
I'm not aware of what posts were deleted, nor the content they contained, but I will tell you why, in general, we moderate our forums the way we do.

When I started these forums, I had the goal of creating a community that would not only promote the awareness of open carry, but to also create a public face for the people who do open carry. If ever there is a newsworthy incident that involves someone who open carries in the local area, the media flock to these sites for information, news, and perspective. It was my decision to say, "These forums are public, and if anyone, media, anti-gun, pro-gun, or whomever came and registered for an account, I want them to see nothing but a group of intelligent, friendly, and law abiding citizens who believe in their exercising their personal freedoms."

It's true that we are not a formal organization with a board. We can barely manage funding for web hosting costs, so there's no way that we could afford the legalities of becoming an LLC and registering with the state. Not to mention that I would never want to see this group get mired down in the internal politics of the other gun clubs and organizations that are out there. I'm fine with Delaware Open Carry sharing its core values at events through the resources and enthusiasm of its most vehement members.

On the topic of membership that someone raised, I honestly don't care if we have 12 dedicated individuals who post every day, or 300 semi-inactive folks who check on a casual basis. In all honesty, I'd be perfectly fine with that core group of 12 who enjoy talking about open carry, and who will be friends for life. That's pretty much how it started, and I certainly find value in that, so if that's what we wind up with, that's how we'll continue.

I'm hoping that folks will remain interested. It's to be expected that some of the people who have been here for years will have their enthusiasm wane or pursue other personal or professional activities that take time away from our goal. That's why I pray that as new people come on board, it is their enthusiasm and their time that will help continue the open carry movement ideology. Regardless of your personal stance on politicians, politics, and law enforcement, these three things will have a great influence on our day-to-day interactions and how we are ultimately perceived. DELOC has done some great things in the past with activism and influencing the review of local legislation, but you will never be taken seriously if a representative or police officer logs in to get a sense of who we are, and all they see are cop jokes and flames.

For the people who are calling others to action, good on you and thank you for taking on that mantle. If you're looking to effect change and aren't sure where to start, begin by contributing research or thought on a piece of legislation or interpretation of the law. If you're looking for a place to casually talk about the Second Amendment or your love of firearms, awesome! If you want to incite flame wars or post negatively about the political system without offering insight on potential solutions, there are lots of gun forums out there who don't care about public perception. That doesn't make them good or bad, just different from Delaware Open Carry, and I invite you to explore them.

So, if any of you ever wonder why a post is pulled, it's because someone read it and said, "Hey, if someone in the general public read that post, they might get a negative impression of the people who open carry."

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Delaware Open Carry, Founder
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