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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:21 am 
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Mr.Skellington wrote:
I could be wrong but I think everyone here carries for protection.

While I agree that carrying a rifle as a EDC is ridiculous for practical reasons I'm not sure why you feel making political statements or annoying the Brady bunch gives OC a bad rap.

Do you care to explain that position? I'm hoping its not the same rhetoric that the Brady bunch uses about OCing pistols, just applied to rifles.


Mr. Skellington, I believe any kind of abuse gives the abuser a bad rep and that extends to the group the same represents. While I understand it is perfectly legal to OC a rifle, I trully believe it makes people very unconfortable, much more than carrying a pistol, which calls the attention of lawmakers to do something about it.

There is really no real reason to OC a rifle, although the law allows you, besides affronting. It is my opinion that OCing with a rifle to provoke/affront is wrong.

I also don't believe in the saying that if you don't use your rights you will loose it, I believe that if you abuse the right you will loose it.

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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:07 am 
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Condition1 wrote:
Mr. Skellington, I believe any kind of abuse gives the abuser a bad rep and that extends to the group the same represents. While I understand it is perfectly legal to OC a rifle, I trully believe it makes people very unconfortable, much more than carrying a pistol, which calls the attention of lawmakers to do something about it.

There is really no real reason to OC a rifle, although the law allows you, besides affronting. It is my opinion that OCing with a rifle to provoke/affront is wrong.

I also don't believe in the saying that if you don't use your rights you will loose it, I believe that if you abuse the right you will loose it.


I'll stick my nose in where it doesn't belong and say that I agree... I mean think about it like this...

If I walk into the local Friendly's to enjoy a lunch and some ice cream, with a sidearm strapped on, how big of a fuss is it really going to make? Chances are most people won't even notice it... Of those that do, the majority will probably assume I'm law enforcement or something like that. A very few others will know that it's perfectly legal for "normal" citizens to do and won't think anything of it. And of course there's ALWAYS a chance that SOMEBODY might get freaked out and call the cops... But it's relatively unlikely...

On the other hand, if I walk into that same Friendly's with my RA XCR slung around me, it's going to freak EVERYONE the hell out. People, LOTS of people would be calling the cops, they'd probably be screaming, trying to run out, etc... It would literally be a mass histeria event...

Yes, I realize it's perfectly legal to do so, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. And when the dust settles, it's going to be extremely difficult to get the average citizen to side with me, because even as someone who KNOWS it's legal and is very comfortable around firearms, even I would have been on a very heightened alert and seriously be questioning the intention.

It just seems "provoking" in my opinion...


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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:09 pm 
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rusirius wrote:
On the other hand, if I walk into that same Friendly's with my RA XCR slung around me, it's going to freak EVERYONE the hell out. People, LOTS of people would be calling the cops, they'd probably be screaming, trying to run out, etc... It would literally be a mass histeria event...


And I'm sure were going to be shooting eachother over parking spaces and road rage when CC laws pass, shooting down airplanes with .50 BMGs, blood will run in the streets, etc. In reality these claims have been unfounded. You're allowing your fear of an unknown event to run rampant. I HIGHLY doubt people would panic and start running for the exits. Sure you'll get plenty of looks, maybe a few jeers, some business owners will ask you to leave. All of these are to be expected when protesting.

And yes someone might even call the cops. At which point the police can see that you're not a threat and simply leave. Or better yet the 911 dispatcher can ask if you actually pose a threat, determine that you don't, and tell the caller to get over themselves. Any encounter more negative than that would be the police's fault, not yours. If you decide not to exercise your rights because you feel that the police would harass and punish you for it then guess what - your rights don't need to be violated, because you've already been bullied into giving them up.

rusirius wrote:
And when the dust settles, it's going to be extremely difficult to get the average citizen to side with me,...


If people already agreed with you then the protest would be mute. That's why we have laws and a Constitution to protect our rights - so our views can be freely expressed until the time when the majority actually does agree with them. People don't need to necessarily agree with you at the moment. They just need to respect your rights. I certainly don't agree with them but I respect the rights of the Nazis and WBC to march around spewing hate. We should expect the same level of official protection. (And our message isn't filled with hate, so we actually have a chance of gaining support until we don't need protection).

rusirius wrote:
...because even as someone who KNOWS it's legal and is very comfortable around firearms, even I would have been on a very heightened alert and seriously be questioning the intention.


Ah, so you're projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else. Isn't that the kind of tactic we get upset at antis for? Also "questioning the intention" of those around you is a main component of situational awareness IMO and should be practiced regardless of what they're carrying.

rusirius wrote:
It just seems "provoking" in my opinion...


Again, that's the whole point of a protest. To provoke people into considering alternatives to the status quo.

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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:21 pm 
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astro_wanabe wrote:
http://deloc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=53447&sid=42d6076329326e86f76823598c9c5761#p53447


I completely disagree with you...good luck with your choices!

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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Well I can't wrap it up better than Astro just did so I will include a few videos of OCing a rifle.







If you can view these and tell me that these two men, who are making a statement by carrying a rifle, give OC a bad rep by their actions then I'll simply have to end the conversation on that note.

The second video covers a great Q&A with the black man carrying an AR15. IMO He did a fantastic job speaking with people who disagreed with his views.

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All the reasons which make the initiation of physical force an evil, make the retaliatory use of physical force a moral imperative. -Ayn Rand


Last edited by Mr.Skellington on Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Mr.Skellington wrote:
Well I can't wrap it up better than Astro just did so I will include a few videos of OCing a rifle.

[...]

If you can view these and tell me that these two men, who are making a statement by carrying a rifle, give OC a bad rep by their actions then I'll simple have to end the conversation on that note.

The second video covers a great Q&A with the black man carrying an AR15. IMO He did a fantastic job speaking with people who disagreed with his views.


As I said to astro, your choice and belief. I belive differently!

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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:46 pm 
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astro_wanabe wrote:
And I'm sure were going to be shooting eachother over parking spaces and road rage when CC laws pass, shooting down airplanes with .50 BMGs, blood will run in the streets, etc. In reality these claims have been unfounded. You're allowing your fear of an unknown event to run rampant. I HIGHLY doubt people would panic and start running for the exits. Sure you'll get plenty of looks, maybe a few jeers, some business owners will ask you to leave. All of these are to be expected when protesting.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I'm sorry but I'm absolutely confident that if someone were to open carry a black rifle into an establishment like this it would cause a complete ruckus and and CERTAINLY more so than simply carrying a handgun. I mean come on, how are you even going to retain it properly while sitting down trying to eat a meal?

astro_wanabe wrote:
If you decide not to exercise your rights because you feel that the police would harass and punish you for it then guess what - your rights don't need to be violated, because you've already been bullied into giving them up.

It's not about the police and it's not about being bullied... It's about using common sense. It's about being respectful of others WHILE exercising your rights... If it were perfectly legal for me to own C4, it doesn't mean I should walk into the local friendly's and plop a big old brick of it on the counter just to exercise my right.

astro_wanabe wrote:
Ah, so you're projecting your own insecurities onto everyone else. Isn't that the kind of tactic we get upset at antis for? Also "questioning the intention" of those around you is a main component of situational awareness IMO and should be practiced regardless of what they're carrying.

No, I'm simply being realistic. With crime the way it is, people can be on edge as is. Come on... Sitting at your table trying to eat a meal, if you see someone walking towards the door with a sidearm in a holster on their side it's just not going to raise much alarm. Sure they might have ill intent, but a "reasonable person" would assume they don't. If that same person comes walking toward the door with a black rifle, especially if slung across the front, then a "reasonable person" isn't going to be so quick to judge them as harmless... and most "reasonable persons" would feel at least some level of fear until they observed exactly what the intent was.

It's not about the person, it's not about their right... It's about the practicality of what they are doing. Carrying a sidearm around for protection is practical... A rifle just isn't. So if it's not practical, then that means they are going out of their way to do it... If that's the case, then my first thought is WHY???


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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:50 pm 
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Mr.Skellington wrote:
Well I can't wrap it up better than Astro just did so I will include a few videos of OCing a rifle.....


The second video is of a guy who was "staged" to be there, and a staged interview... That doesn't discount what he's saying, but it was all staged and rehearsed which almost immediately makes it null in my opinion...

The first video gives a prime example of why someone SHOULDN'T OC a rifle... Beginning around 1:35 you can see the muzzle of the rifle cover the little girls legs and hip a couple of times... Again this goes back to the practicality of doing it... And it's just not practical...


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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:58 pm 
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rusirius wrote:
Mr.Skellington wrote:
Well I can't wrap it up better than Astro just did so I will include a few videos of OCing a rifle.....


The second video is of a guy who was "staged" to be there, and a staged interview... That doesn't discount what he's saying, but it was all staged and rehearsed which almost immediately makes it null in my opinion...


We're almost on the same page here. I'm not so much promoting the ideal of using a rifle for every day carry (EDC) but acknowledging that its a legal way to attract attention if you so desire such as the planned event above. If Deloc were to plan a rally or event where we wanted to make sure we were heard (tv news, TNJ, etc) then a rifle would just about seal the deal.

However the flip side to this which you present and with which I personally agree is that it draws too much attention if your not specifically trying to make a political statement such as having a meal at Friendly's. This is one of the many reasons I don't consider a rifle for EDC.

rusirius wrote:
The first video gives a prime example of why someone SHOULDN'T OC a rifle... Beginning around 1:35 you can see the muzzle of the rifle cover the little girls legs and hip a couple of times... Again this goes back to the practicality of doing it... And it's just not practical...


I agree. I personally would not OC a rifle for EDC. Its not practical, you've said in another post, and I've said as much many times in threads other than this one. In short OCing a rifle for EDC is not the same as OCing one for a rally or the role of making a statement.

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All the reasons which make the initiation of physical force an evil, make the retaliatory use of physical force a moral imperative. -Ayn Rand


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 Post subject: Re: What Allows Us To Open Carry?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Mr.Skellington wrote:
We're almost on the same page here. I'm not so much promoting the ideal of using a rifle for every day carry (EDC) but acknowledging that its a legal way to attract attention if you so desire such as the planned event above. If Deloc were to plan a rally or event where we wanted to make sure we were heard (tv news, TNJ, etc) then a rifle would just about seal the deal.
...
However the flip side to this which you present and with which I personally agree is that it draws too much attention if your not specifically trying to make a political statement such as having a meal at Friendly's. This is one of the many reasons I don't consider a rifle for EDC.

I think we're absolutely on the same page then. I absolutely agree that it's perfectly legal, and within our rights to do so. And I absolutely agree that in a rally or protest or some other gathering where you wanted to assert that right, then I'd have no problem at all with it.

My only point was that in a situation where you're going out to eat dinner with your family or something, while it may be perfectly legal to do it, it's just not a good choice... At least in my opinion, and I'd hope the opinion of others.


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