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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:10 pm 
MrCoolDale wrote:
Plenty of you will hate my position on this when I say: we brought this on ourselves. Open carrying shotguns and AR's serves no benefit to our open carry cause. It is a shock factor that will cause more people to move against us. People who didn't care one way or another are against open carry, now that they see it applies to long guns as well.

This is a point I've been making for quite a while, and people just say "it's our right." Sure, it IS our right, but it's not necessary to make our point. Open carrying a pistol is largely invisible to public. It says, "I'm just like you." Yet open carrying an AR says, "I'm ready for war." You guys can pick this apart, but this is what the public sees.

In this case, it's what Starbucks sees. While CSGV, MAIG, and MDA, were fighting Starbucks on their policy to follow local law, all we had to do was sit back and shutup. For years Starbucks stuck to their policy, or lack there of in ths case. The only thing that changed between then and now is a bunch of people showing up for Starbucks appreciation day. I was first upset that the left couldn't leave Starbucks alone, they had to politicize everything. When the gun-rights crowd decided to get in on the action and force Starbucks to make a decision, we all lost.

This is what the left does. They hound on a subject until they're blue in the face, the. They do it some more. They make us our own worst enemies through division, indecision, and "optics." The left tends to grab the people on the fence because they pretend to be more inviting.

We can expect to see a big push to stop open carry very soon. I can assure you that open carrying a rifle to church in Easter will not help us.


As much as I don't want to agree with you and think that the general public should just deal with it no matter what we carry I have to say that I do agree with you. This is unfortunately the world we live in. With people who are uninformed and uneducated about weapons in general and the government spiting off whatever it wants to no matter if it makes sense or not we are fighting and up hill battle. Then when you have people who "force" open carry on the public and then post it for the world to see it does work against us. Instead of going out about your business, informing people who may ask about OC but other wise act as if you are no different then anyone else walking around we gave them what they wanted. Now the hill is even steeper. While I don't agree with what Starbucks has done in response with going the complete opposite direction I can see how some people did not help the situation. So again as much as I dislike it and wont be giving Starbucks any of my money I can see what you are saying.


  
 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:13 pm 
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MCD, I feel the same way. OCing log guns just because you can does not help us. The YouTube video of those nitwits OCing rifles at a Starbucks had to be the final straw at the corporate HQ. I have said it repeatedly that image is everything. The anti-2A groups use it all the time against us. And here we do it to ourselves! There are a large number of OCers that operate in the mode of how the world should be instead of how it is. There was a video of a bunch of rubes with slung rifles and shotguns trying to get seated at a Crackle Barrel restaurant. The imagery was horrible. I could how the sheep would be nervous around this bunch of MENSA rejects. Time and again I have spoken about how we portray ourselves will either be our salvation or our undoing. Looking like a mall ninja, wearing thigh rigs or sporting "F**K OBAMA" t-shirts only hurts our cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:47 pm 
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We brought what on ourselves? Getting a Defacto ban from a liberal-leaning anti-Christian, pro-gay marriage over-priced coffeehouse?

Your position isn't all that far from the other naysayers who call themselves pro-gun/pro-2nd Amendment. They're all over Colion Noir's Facebook page, as one example." Its all your fault, open-carriers!

This is an actual post from a fan his page today: I believe the "open carry" advocates brought this on with their ill-conceived campaign. Open carry "demonstrations" forced Starbucks into this. This "in your face" approach is counter productive. BTY, open carry for personal defense is also a flawed tactic.

In Texas, where the 3 men a few weeks ago were cited for Disturbing the peace in San Antonio after SUPPORTING Starbucks' perceived championing of the Pro-Gun movement, Open carry of Handguns is not permitted. Open carry of unloaded rifles IS permitted if they are not loaded. Until now, Starbucks followed the letter of the law in each store's respective state. One can surmise that that particular incident and the dueling "Skip Starbucks" and "Starbucks Appreciation Days" were in fact triggered or fueled by that event, at least in part. Now, Starbucks has caved to the Anti's. No big loss to me.

MrCoolDale, have you ever participated in an Open Carry Demonstration/March? Do you open carry or conceal carry? Do you carry a pistol or a rifle? The point of the public interaction is to show the public that friendly, law abiding people carry guns. The have to SEE your gun in order for them to know you have it. Otherwise, why bother. A concealed carrier looks just like a non-carrier.
The point of these STARBUCKS days was to show by way of Green, cold hard cash (the language that businesses understand), that just because a guy has a gun doesn't make him a bad guy.

The fact is, that the LAW and the CONSTITUTION should dictate what we do with our guns, not the culture and its perceptions. If someone feels uncomfortable with a law-abiding citizen with a rifle slung on their back, engaging in friendly conversation, sipping a latte Venti-Mocha then the PROBLEM is with the scaredy-cat and Not the guy with the rifle. No matter if there was a Sandy Hook every day of the year, the guy with the rifle, slung over his shoulder is NOT the enemy. Nor is the guy with the Pistol on his hip, whether in plain sight or not. It doesn't matter if that pistol is a .50 cal Desert Eagle or a FiveSeven with a 20 or (GASP!) 30 round magazine.

The only time someone should be frightened is when a guy is walking around with Gun-in-hand.Once that rifle comes around front, THAT is when its all-bets off. Once that gun is unholstered,And Starbucks, Costco, Whole Foods, Peets Coffee, et al, aren't going to stop the bullets. Only a GOOD GUY with a gun can do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:01 pm 
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MrCoolDale wrote:
Plenty of you will hate my position on this when I say: we brought this on ourselves. Open carrying shotguns and AR's serves no benefit to our open carry cause. It is a shock factor that will cause more people to move against us. People who didn't care one way or another are against open carry, now that they see it applies to long guns as well.

This is a point I've been making for quite a while, and people just say "it's our right." Sure, it IS our right, but it's not necessary to make our point. Open carrying a pistol is largely invisible to public. It says, "I'm just like you." Yet open carrying an AR says, "I'm ready for war." You guys can pick this apart, but this is what the public sees.

In this case, it's what Starbucks sees. While CSGV, MAIG, and MDA, were fighting Starbucks on their policy to follow local law, all we had to do was sit back and shutup. For years Starbucks stuck to their policy, or lack there of in ths case. The only thing that changed between then and now is a bunch of people showing up for Starbucks appreciation day. I was first upset that the left couldn't leave Starbucks alone, they had to politicize everything. When the gun-rights crowd decided to get in on the action and force Starbucks to make a decision, we all lost.

This is what the left does. They hound on a subject until they're blue in the face, the. They do it some more. They make us our own worst enemies through division, indecision, and "optics." The left tends to grab the people on the fence because they pretend to be more inviting.

We can expect to see a big push to stop open carry very soon. I can assure you that open carrying a rifle to church in Easter will not help us.


:applause:

I agree. These "appreciation days" forced them into a decision.

If everyone would have just went about their daily routine, they would probably have never said anything.

Showing up en-masse as a political statement only "reinforces" the sheeple's thoughts that we're a bunch of unhinged lunatics. Unfortunately there are more of them than us.


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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:51 pm
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Location: Newark, DE
I can't speak for MCD, but I OPEN CARRY EVERYDAY! I do NOT OC a rifle or shotgun because I recognize how it looks to others. MY Kimber 1911 .45ACP rides on my hip in a SERPA holster and that is all anybody sees. The vast majority of the time people don't even notice my pistol because I do not project myself in their face. I have not gone to any OC demonstrations because until recently I worked seven days a week with only the odd day off to compete. I do not OC just because I can. I do not OC to make a political statement. I OC for the very reason stated on my CCDW application... "For the protection of myself and my family in the absence of police".

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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:19 pm
Posts: 1048
Location: New Castle, DE
brich2929 wrote:
We brought what on ourselves? Getting a Defacto ban from a liberal-leaning anti-Christian, pro-gay marriage over-priced coffeehouse?

Your position isn't all that far from the other naysayers who call themselves pro-gun/pro-2nd Amendment. They're all over Colion Noir's Facebook page, as one example." Its all your fault, open-carriers!

This is an actual post from a fan his page today: I believe the "open carry" advocates brought this on with their ill-conceived campaign. Open carry "demonstrations" forced Starbucks into this. This "in your face" approach is counter productive. BTY, open carry for personal defense is also a flawed tactic.

In Texas, where the 3 men a few weeks ago were cited for Disturbing the peace in San Antonio after SUPPORTING Starbucks' perceived championing of the Pro-Gun movement, Open carry of Handguns is not permitted. Open carry of unloaded rifles IS permitted if they are not loaded. Until now, Starbucks followed the letter of the law in each store's respective state. One can surmise that that particular incident and the dueling "Skip Starbucks" and "Starbucks Appreciation Days" were in fact triggered or fueled by that event, at least in part. Now, Starbucks has caved to the Anti's. No big loss to me.

The point of these STARBUCKS days was to show by way of Green, cold hard cash (the language that businesses understand), that just because a guy has a gun doesn't make him a bad guy.


First I'd like to state that a position on one topic does not dictate a position on another. I am an advocate for gay marriage, women's choice, legalization of most street drugs, felon's rights, and against religion. However, for the purposes of these forums, I am pro-2A. I believe we should have the right to OC long guns, but I don't believe we should unless necessary. It certainly isn't tactically advantageous to have an unloaded firearm across your back. The response time for drawing such a firearm is incredibly long for an active shoot situation. Open carrying a loaded pistol is something different. Very tactical, and you still get your point across.

Carrying a gun doesn't make you a bad guy, I agree. Open carrying an AR or a shotgun makes you a nuisance. It also makes you unapproachable; completely defeating the purpose of public education. It's not enough for them to see you, they have to interact with you.

"Hey, look at that guy grabbing a mocha frappuccino before he kills everyone in this place."
versus
"Hey, that guy carrying the pistol was actually a really decent guy to talk to."

It's all about public perception. I'm not the one that needs to be convinced, the on-the-fence public is.

brich2929 wrote:
MrCoolDale, have you ever participated in an Open Carry Demonstration/March? Do you open carry or conceal carry? Do you carry a pistol or a rifle? The point of the public interaction is to show the public that friendly, law abiding people carry guns. The have to SEE your gun in order for them to know you have it. Otherwise, why bother. A concealed carrier looks just like a non-carrier.


I open carry on a daily basis and have conversations with strangers about it constantly. I have also been apprehended by the state police and harassed by several other police departments (New Castle County ongoing) for OCing. This only serves to drive me to open carry even more.

brich2929 wrote:
The fact is, that the LAW and the CONSTITUTION should dictate what we do with our guns, not the culture and its perceptions. If someone feels uncomfortable with a law-abiding citizen with a rifle slung on their back, engaging in friendly conversation, sipping a latte Venti-Mocha then the PROBLEM is with the scaredy-cat and Not the guy with the rifle. No matter if there was a Sandy Hook every day of the year, the guy with the rifle, slung over his shoulder is NOT the enemy. Nor is the guy with the Pistol on his hip, whether in plain sight or not. It doesn't matter if that pistol is a .50 cal Desert Eagle or a FiveSeven with a 20 or (GASP!) 30 round magazine.


While the law and constitution should (and does) dictate what we do with our firearms, it's important to note that Starbucks, being a private corporation, has every right to ban firearms from its premises.

brich2929 wrote:
The only time someone should be frightened is when a guy is walking around with Gun-in-hand.Once that rifle comes around front, THAT is when its all-bets off. Once that gun is unholstered,And Starbucks, Costco, Whole Foods, Peets Coffee, et al, aren't going to stop the bullets. Only a GOOD GUY with a gun can do that.


I'd agree that we shouldn't be worried unless the firearm is in hand, but several pictures floating about show exactly that. Shotguns with the bolt forward in the low ready. I can also tell you that while I advocate open carry, I'm keeping a close eye on anyone walking around with a long gun. Will I freak out and call the cops? No, but I'll certainly watch him/her like a hawk.

I do not agree with the public's reaction to OCing an AR, but we knew it was going to happen. Anyone who couldn't see this as the only possible outcome is either blind or obtuse. Neither of which have a place in this movement.

Brich, I really don't want you take any of this as an attack on you. I like you and your passion is a fantastic motivator for everyone, myself included. What I'm trying to say is that it's not pro-gun crowd that needs to be convinced, but that's the only people seeing the positive side of OCing an AR in a Starbucks. It's not wrong, but it's not helping our cause, as evidenced here.

*edit* My apologies, I initially spelled Brich as Birch.

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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Got to love how they're blaming this on the pro gun (rights) folks. Because if I'm not mistaken it was the anti gun (rights) folks that started making the stink, with a boycott, and continue to the point where the CEO writes this letter.

What's worse is the 'pro gun' folks that also share in this attitude. Sometimes it's the pro gun folks that are our worst enemies.
Here's one typical of what we've heard from the CC crowd as we've been trying to reinstate this right as a common place experience and get past this hysteria.
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_fil ... ign=Buffer

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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:31 pm 
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WPCatfish wrote:
Bottom line "We don't like your guns, or want your guns, but we won't ask you to leave because we still want your money."



Too bad. I know no one is going to ask me to leave but that tells me they don't want my business.

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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Starbucks could have asked for no more "appreciation days".

Dunkin Donuts has a great opportunity here...


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 Post subject: Re: Starbucks no longer Open Carry (or CC) friendly.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:12 am 
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The Starbuck appreciation days were not so numerous or newsworthy as to have caused this reaction. Additionally those displays amounted to a miniscule showing of well behaved citizens both celebrating their rights and showing their appreciation to Starbucks for recognizing them. The TX video, yes, three people were OCing long guns but there's more to that. The fact is in TX that is the only way one can legally OC thereby making their reasons for the visit known to others. So what was the big hairy deal?

In our state we still enjoy the choice to OC pistols. I 100% agree with others who have stated that its best to OC in a manner which your sidearm doesn't overshadow yourself or make you unapproachable. However berating people, as some 'CC only' advocates often do, because they choose to exercise their rights is not the proper target of outrage nor something I'll be a party to. The cause for the Starbuck decision lies squarely on those who crap on the 2A everyday and wish to undo it entirely. They kept up with their BS and Starbucks finally caved to the pressure. No problem I'll keep my principals and my money. I will however write a, what I hope to be one out of many, letter to Starbucks letting them know my principals will not allow me to patron any place in which my sidearm is discouraged.

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