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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:45 am 
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To MrCoolDale (and anyone else who initially agrees with his comment)

You would change your mind if you had retired after spending 25 years of putting away animals (murderers, rapists, robbers, etc.) and you ran into one of them at Walmart while shopping with your wife, or perhaps with your grandchild.

I suggest that you might want to rethink your opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:30 am 
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DMac wrote:
To MrCoolDale (and anyone else who initially agrees with his comment)

You would change your mind if you had retired after spending 25 years of putting away animals (murderers, rapists, robbers, etc.) and you ran into one of them at Walmart while shopping with your wife, or perhaps with your grandchild.

I suggest that you might want to rethink your opinion.


And I think you should re-read the comments and then perhaps reconsider yours. They were not saying that they don't believe that retired LEO should not be able to carry... only that they shoud NOT get any special privelege for a country-wide carry license w/o restrictions. Retired LEOs are once again citizens and should not be afforded a national carry license when the rest of us citizens who have chosen a different profession are not. It has to be either they go through the same processes and hoops that we do or they offer a national carry license to ALL. The moral of the story is "Equality."

It's not "All for some, and some for the others!"

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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:48 am 
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My point is that retired law enforcement officers have a special need to carry that other citizens do not have. That is the entire reason for the federal law (HR 218). If anyone will not acknowledge that, then they are just not being reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:09 am 
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DMac wrote:
My point is that retired law enforcement officers have a special need to carry that other citizens do not have. That is the entire point of the federal law (HR 218). If anyone is too ignorant to see that, then there's really no point in arguing with them.

Need has nothing to do with it. We ALL have the right to self defense. If we have laws "granting" a right, then it really isn't a right now is it?

I agree that it's hard sometimes to see this because we have been brainwashed for so long to think that the gov 'grants' us rights but the reality is that we reserved rights, meaning the gov has no say in the matter.

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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:26 am 
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For the record, I am entirely pro second amendment. In their wisdom, the founders saw fit to codify the God given right of every human being to defend oneself. Based on the text of the amendment, I don't believe that any level of government has any legal right to regulate any firearm... period. "Shall not be infringed," means what it says.

The problem is however, that the literal interpretation of the amendment is not being applied in the world in which we live. The ideal and the reality are therefore two very different things. This being the case, the "need" of retired LEOs IS in fact relevant and federal law (H.R. 218) acknowledges this.

So, in the real world in which we exist:

-Do retired LEOs need to be able to carry? Yes, of course they do.
-Do some state and local laws tend to inhibit their ability to carry? Yes, of course they do.
-Is therefore a federal statute needed, in order to guarantee the right of retired LEOs to carry? Yes, absolutely. And that is what we have in H.R. 218.

But now I'll give all of you some even deeper insight into all of this. The deeper reality is that all of this is actually completely moot. Why? Because I know of no law enforcement officer in this country who would ever even think of bringing a firearm charge against an otherwise law abiding retired officer. If he/she ever did such a thing, they would be an instant outcast in their department. There is a brotherhood of blue and it is sacred.

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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:33 am 
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I can understand the pragmatic approach. I do believe in the rule of law. But I am also frustrated that LEO do selectively ignore laws on their own. It's the rationalization that one person is different than another that is so unjust. If we held all to the same standard think how fast we'd all come to agreement on getting rid of the bad laws.

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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:04 pm 
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So wrong, in so many ways.

No carve outs for anyone. No ones right or need is greater then anyone else's, or less, especially as applied to 2a issues. Period.

No ones rights should be infringed. That said...

Retired, your rights are not more or less then mine. Your rights shoud be infringed as much or as little as mine. You are no better or worse then me.

On duty, well, let's just say we can start googling cops gone bad.

I say the same for retired military, retired police, retired other Feds.

Carve outs are an attempt to curry favor with a segment of society, nothing more or less.

If you think I Have less rights, 2a or otherwise, then you or anyone, we've just agreed that you are not pro2a or any rights. We've agreed that you are a sell out for a carve out.

*** edit:::

if you want to carry nation wide, do what everyone else has to do. apply for the right to carry in states accordingly. Florida, to get many, Utah for a few others, then each and every other state as required for the ones not honoring Forida, Utah, Delaware and so on.

and good luck with California, New Jersey, New York, and the others INFRINGERS who think no one but the carve outs should carry.

then, after suffering as much as us peasants, push for national reciprocity, so that a least you only have to pay for one set of finger prints, background check, "class" where required, and so on.

then maybe push for just having everyone honor the 2a, without paying to do it.

DMac wrote:
For the record, I am entirely pro second amendment. In their wisdom, the founders saw fit to codify the God given right of every human being to defend oneself. Based on the text of the amendment, I don't believe that any level of government has any legal right to regulate any firearm... period. "Shall not be infringed," means what it says.

The problem is however, that the literal interpretation of the amendment is not being applied in the world in which we live. The ideal and the reality are therefore two very different things. This being the case, the "need" of retired LEOs IS in fact relevant and federal law (H.R. 218) acknowledges this.

So, in the real world in which we exist:

-Do retired LEOs need to be able to carry? Yes, of course they do.
-Do some state and local laws tend to inhibit their ability to carry? Yes, of course they do.
-Is therefore a federal statute needed, in order to guarantee the right of retired LEOs to carry? Yes, absolutely. And that is what we have in H.R. 218.

But now I'll give all of you some even deeper insight into all of this. The deeper reality is that all of this is actually completely moot. Why? Because I know of no law enforcement officer in this country who would ever even think of bringing a firearm charge against an otherwise law abiding retired officer. If he/she ever did such a thing, they would be an instant outcast in their department. There is a brotherhood of blue and it is sacred.


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 Post subject: Re: very nice chat with a retired NJ state police lieutenant
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:13 pm 
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pick_six wrote:
Carve outs are an attempt to curry favor with a segment of society, nothing more or less.

Dang, now I have a serious craving for curry.

But back to the discussion.

I understand the need of a retired officer of the law to carry and respect that.

Why won't they and everyone else for that matter understand mine, yours, and everyone else's need to carry and respect what it says in the highest law of our land?


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