If you have a particular encounter with another citizen or LEO, post it here.
 #32524  by Boots
 
Delawarelaws wrote:Before you book your picnic you should read this.

New Castle County Code

http://library5.municode.com/default-te ... n=whatsnew

Sec. 24.01.014. Possession of certain knives; discharge of weapons.

No person shall carry a knife upon his or her person having a blade three (3) inches or longer in length or have possession of or discharge a BB gun, air rifle, pistol, firearm, paint ball gun, bow and arrow or any other type of lethal weapon in any park.
First, welcome to the forum! One of the main focuses of this forum is the careful study of firearm laws and judging from your handle I see you could be an asset to this board.

In my first post I included a Title 22 quote relating to municipalities. Here is Title 9 of the state code that relates to counties...
Title 9. Counties
Part I. Provisions Affecting All Counties
Chapter 3. County Governments Generally
330. General powers and duties. …
(c) The county governments shall enact no law or regulation prohibiting, restricting or licensing the ownership, transfer, possession or transportation of firearms or components of firearms or ammunition except that the discharge of a firearm may be regulated; provided any law, ordinance or regulation incorporates the justification defenses.
On this forum we are very aware of NCCo's unenforceable 'guns in the parks' law. However, we don't expect the average citizen to understand this, but we DO expect law enforcement officers to understand it; whether they personally agree with it or not.

Since there is no law against what I did at Iron Hill Park, here is what I think should have happened... The person handling the 9-1-1 call should have asked the caller for some basic information, such as "what is the MWAG doing?"
The answer probably would have been "He's sitting on a bench in the fenced-in dog area talking to another guy."
"Where is the gun? or , What's he doing with the gun?"
---"It's in a holster on his right hip."
"Has he taken it out of the holster?"
---"No."
"Has he done anything illegal?"
---"I told you, he has a gun"
"The Delaware State Constitution acknowledges the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms openly, so that's not illegal. But if you think there is any danger to yourself or the public we can send an officer to investigate. Would you like us to do so?"

At this point, if the answer is 'yes', the officer can come to the scene and observe the situation to determine if there is any RAS to take further action. The officer could also meet with the concerned citizen and inform them of their assessment.

If there is no RAS, the person should not even be approached. No doubt some cops would like to be able to ask anyone "for their papers", but our Fourth Amendment must be protected... "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, ...." and this is the main topic of this thread.

And, that's why we talk of asserting our Fourth Amendment Right by things like "Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?" And expecting a RAS before the officer acts. We aren't trying to be difficult, we just expect to be able to go about our daily business in every lawful way.

Thanks for your post and your concern. And please feel free to continue the discussion here. :D
 #32525  by Boots
 
myopicvisionary wrote:Trying to see a positive... after two LEO encounters, you are still walking around in possession of your firearm.
True. And I have no issues with cops trying to do their job. I just want it well known that people open carrying in a holster are just normal people going about their daily business and want their Fourth Amendment Right respected (along with their Second Amendment Right).

The bad guys insist on their Fourth Amendment Right, and so should we! :mrgreen:
 #32526  by Boots
 
Tony T wrote:I still believe that John Thompson should be contacted. I have his contact info if you need it. And I am willing to contribute financially. ....
THANKS for the offer for financial help! 8-)

There is a 'legal eagle' making some inquires on Monday to get more info on Middletown's 109-13. We need to get some basic info before we can determine the best way to proceed.

Thanx again! :mrgreen:

PS - Middletown's Levels Road Park has a GREAT place for dogs to run and my dog loves it. Also, in the past year I've met some really nice people there. I have always OC'd there but I never bring up the subject of guns in conversations. However, I will gladly discuss the subject and answer any questions they may have when THEY bring up the subject. I've also handed out quite a few DELOC cards there and hopefully some have come here to check us out. Since no sign was posted, I had no clue of any Middletown Ordinance that MAY prohibit guns there and was quite surprised by the confrontation. I'm anxious to get this cleared up and resume the friendships both my dog and I have made at the dog park. :mrgreen:
 #32530  by scampbell3
 
Delawarelaws wrote:Before you book your picnic you should read this.

New Castle County Code

http://library5.municode.com/default-te ... n=whatsnew

Sec. 24.01.014. Possession of certain knives; discharge of weapons.

No person shall carry a knife upon his or her person having a blade three (3) inches or longer in length or have possession of or discharge a BB gun, air rifle, pistol, firearm, paint ball gun, bow and arrow or any other type of lethal weapon in any park.
Welcome to the forum, as others have already pointed out, these ordinances are invalid and unenforceable due to State Preemption. There has been significant work done by those on this forum who live in NCC in regards to getting the county counsel to acknowledge these invalid ordinances and to get them removed from the books. NCC is fully aware they are unenforceable and so should the NCC police as well.

Chip
 #32532  by Amy Blackthorn
 
Boots wrote: Since there is no law against what I did at Iron Hill Park, here is what I think should have happened... The person handling the 9-1-1 call should have asked the caller for some basic information, such as "what is the MWAG doing?"
The answer probably would have been "He's sitting on a bench in the fenced-in dog area talking to another guy."
"Where is the gun? or , What's he doing with the gun?"
---"It's in a holster on his right hip."
"Has he taken it out of the holster?"
---"No."
"Has he done anything illegal?"
---"I told you, he has a gun"
"The Delaware State Constitution acknowledges the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms openly, so that's not illegal. But if you think there is any danger to yourself or the public we can send an officer to investigate. Would you like us to do so?"

At this point, if the answer is 'yes', the officer can come to the scene and observe the situation to determine if there is any RAS to take further action. The officer could also meet with the concerned citizen and inform them of their assessment.

If there is no RAS, the person should not even be approached. No doubt some cops would like to be able to ask anyone "for their papers", but our Fourth Amendment must be protected...
I'm sorry, since I'm a bit new, what does RAS stand for?
 #32533  by Boots
 
Amy Blackthorn wrote:I'm sorry, since I'm a bit new, what does RAS stand for?
We use RAS to stand for Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. Or, to say it another way... Reasonable Suspicion that the officer must be able to Articulate.

More here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

Let us know if we throw you any more curve balls! ;)
 #32534  by Amy Blackthorn
 
Boots wrote:
Amy Blackthorn wrote:I'm sorry, since I'm a bit new, what does RAS stand for?
We use RAS to stand for Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. Or, to say it another way... Reasonable Suspicion that the officer must be able to Articulate.

More here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

Let us know if we throw you any more curve balls! ;)
I got the gist, I just wasn't sure what the A represented. :-) It only took me .01 second to figure out MWAG, LOL.

Will let you know if I get any "stumpers". Thanks for humoring the Blonde!
 #32537  by Boots
 
Delawarelaws-

FYI - Here is a thread concerning Kent County's illegal guns-in-the-park law. It's a blueprint for what needs to be done in NCCo.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2639
 #32546  by Tony T
 
The letter which George wrote was a beautiful thing. Do you know if the county ever fully remedied the situation? Or did they just cease the prosecutions for an interim?

I'd like to see a similar letter drafted which seeks to have the invalid codes stricken from the books and any signage corrected as the remedy which is sought. I'd also request that all state agencies be notified.

Imo it may be best to solicit help from Mr. Thompson / the NRA or GOA. We may benefit and they may benefit, like building blocks.
 #32556  by stephpd
 
I know it was part of something else but got removed somewhere along the lines. Something about the County declaring a 'county of emergency'.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2357

Definitely needs to be introduced again on it's own merits.