[bluedog46]

I have checked around and have not seen much of these. I have seen some intresting videos on cops not knowing the law. Maybe this will be something to help new people in stops.

Personally i dont see anything wrong with showing a law officer and id in general, but i support their right to follow the law if they are not required to provide the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkUj7CdO ... ature=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwQQSo9 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifv5qfuX ... re=related


I thought most people though it was inappropriate for cops to say "papers please"

[GatorDude]

In Delaware, the police are not permitted to demand identification unless there is reasonable suspicion that, basically, you have committed or are about to commit a crime. 11 Del. C. s. 1902. It is questionable whether you must give an actual ID even if there is adequate reasonable suspicion rather than just merely giving your name, address and business/destination.

Mere possessing a firearm is not illegal and therefore that cannot be the basis of reasonable suspicion that you have or are about to commit a crime. This is what usually happens when there's a MWAG call.

Similarly, a police officer in Delaware many not take a firearm unless it is incident to a lawful detention under s. 1902. 11 Del. C. s. 1903. Accordingly, if there was not reasonable suspicion sufficient to warrant the detention and questioning in the first place, taking of the firearm is also illegal and a violation of a person's rights as well.

Some people take the position that you do not do anything you are not constitutionally required to do. I understand that point of view. However, I would provide my ID in the event of a detention even if unlawful after I advise the officer that I will comply with his instructions but that I believe his request is unlawful.

[capnpirate]

I've been watching the videos posted to Youtube specifically in reference to open carrying and being stopped for it. I do have a couple questions, I suppose for everyone, but in particular for GatorDude, who appears to be rather well educated about the law based upon several other additional postings he's made. (Bravo, by the way!)

In several videos, the people being stopped dismissed themselves and left the scene. I understand this to be a particularly risky move on their parts, considering that they never were dismissed by the police and they never had their question answered regarding whether they are free to go.

1) Is it lawful for me to dismiss myself as "free to go" if the police do not answer my request for clarification? (Clarification in regards to whether I am being detained and whether there is evidence that I have or am about to commit a crime.)

2) Is there a time limit I must wait for an answer before I dismiss myself?

3) Are they required to present said evidence upon my request?

I watched one video where a gentleman was placed in handcuffs and pushed into the back of a police cruiser for not producing his identification, which I later understood that he was not required to present as he had not broken any laws and was not under suspicion to break any either.

1) If the police demand to see my identification, am I at liberty to demand proof from the police as to what laws I have broken before producing my identification?

2) If the police do not answer my request for clarification, am I still legally required to produce my identification?

3) Must I produce identification upon ANY law being broken or is it only upon specific types of laws being broken?

4) If the police lie about me breaking a law in an effort to force me to produce identification, is there any form of recourse for me right the wrong done to me?

And lastly, I've seen several videos where the police confronted open carriers by immediately frisking them with very little notice (basically just "Turn this way" or "Face that direction for me") and removing the firearms from the lawfully carrying citizens.

1) Are the police allowed to frisk me without having a reason to suspect that I have or am about to commit a crime?

2) Are the police allowed to take my firearm away from me without having a reason to suspect that I have or am about to commit a crime?

In closing, I'd like to just state that there is plenty of case law in a variety of states (haven't researched any supreme court rulings yet) where the courts have ruled that it is not enough that someone is lawfully carrying a firearm for a police officer to detain you and/or suspect that you have done or are about to commit a crime.

[astro_wanabe]

...GatorDude, who appears to be rather well educated about the law based upon several other additional postings he's made.

Well, we try not to hold that against him

Alot of your questions will have varying answers in different situations, states, and even cities in some places. A laywer would be best to research and answer them, but hopefully the other members can help give you a layman's interpretation. Just remember to verify any legal opinions by yourself or, preferably, with a lawyer, before trying them in any real-life situation.

In some of these cases there simply isn't a clear black and white answer - just a bunch of grey. I would recommend staying clear of such tactics unless you are confident in your legal standing and are willing to be a test case.

[capnpirate]

Just remember to verify any legal opinions by yourself or, preferably, with a lawyer, before trying them in any real-life situation.

To be sure! Allow me do MY best at reproducing legal jargon:

Any opinions posted in response to any questions posed herein and hereafter are solely that. They are not to be construed as legal council.

How'd I do?

Anyhow, I've been trying to find any information I can in reference to my potential of open carrying in the state of Delaware and I cannot seem to find any clearly defined (even if clearly defined as "there is no precedence to conjecture either way"). I only ask these questions as I can foresee situations like these happening in the near future as more and more people practice their rights and those in charge fight back... and I, personally, do not want to get caught off guard.

[GatorDude]

This is not legal advice specific to any actual situation or circumstances but is only a general discussion of what laws may or may not apply and what recourse you may or may not have. Please keep in mind that even if something is not legal or your rights are being violated, you may only be able to fully vindicate such unlawful acts or violations of your rights through legal action such as the trial you are forced to endure as a defendant. Remember, you can be arrested for anything or nothing and you can rest assured a charge will be made that you were (a) disorderly, (b) refusing to comply with a lawful instruction by law enforcement, (c) resisting arrest,or (d) some other BS charge that the police will try to stick you with. With that being said:

1) Is it lawful for me to dismiss myself as "free to go" if the police do not answer my request for clarification? (Clarification in regards to whether I am being detained and whether there is evidence that I have or am about to commit a crime.)

You should absolutely ask the following two questions clear and loud enough that there is no mistake that you are heard: (1) Am I being detained? (2) Am I free to go? If you are being detained, you must stay. If the police officer says you are not free to go, you are being detained. If the police do not respond to either question, you should assume you are free to go unless told otherwise. Of course, I am assuming you are neither in handcuffs or in the back of a police car.


2) Is there a time limit I must wait for an answer before I dismiss myself?

No. Ask the questions. If no response, you are free to go unless told otherwise.
3) Are they required to present said evidence upon my request?
No.


I watched one video where a gentleman was placed in handcuffs and pushed into the back of a police cruiser for not producing his identification, which I later understood that he was not required to present as he had not broken any laws and was not under suspicion to break any either.

1) If the police demand to see my identification, am I at liberty to demand proof from the police as to what laws I have broken before producing my identification?

No. You can certainly ask why you are being detained, etc., but they are not required to answer you.


2) If the police do not answer my request for clarification, am I still legally required to produce my identification?

You are not legally required to "produce" identification in response to an unlawful detention without reasonable suspicion. However, I do not view the situation as one to argue your rights because "reasonable suspicion" can be fabricated later after you have been arrested for failure to give your ID and you can then deal with the issue at trial, etc.


3) Must I produce identification upon ANY law being broken or is it only upon specific types of laws being broken?

If the detention is in compliance with 11 Del. C. s. 1902 (discussed above), you must provide identification (keeping in mind that the statute does not require you to produce "papers" only to state your name, address and destination).

4) If the police lie about me breaking a law in an effort to force me to produce identification, is there any form of recourse for me right the wrong done to me?

Certainly. You can file a formal complaint with the police department. You can also file a civil rights violation complaint. Good luck with that.


And lastly, I've seen several videos where the police confronted open carriers by immediately frisking them with very little notice (basically just "Turn this way" or "Face that direction for me") and removing the firearms from the lawfully carrying citizens.

1) Are the police allowed to frisk me without having a reason to suspect that I have or am about to commit a crime?

Nope


2) Are the police allowed to take my firearm away from me without having a reason to suspect that I have or am about to commit a crime?

Not in Delaware.

I recently read an article about police and testifying in court. There is a phrase that is used regarding this activity and how the police have a nasty habit of making stuff up. They call is "TESTILYING." Keep that in mind. Remember, police are professional witnesses. They know what to say and when to say it. I will note that the majority of police officers do have integrity and honor. However, everyone will lie to save their own hide. I see it all the time.

[bluedog46]

I think the cops are not supposed to take your gun if you do nothing wrong in delaware, but i recall one guy posted about an incident in walmart and he was disarmed. I am sure there are laws that cops break or dont follow as well.

lots of times part of the problem is that person who calls the cops "hes got a gun" might embelish a bit. One one of those videos the guy had his gun holsters when walking back from the store, but someone who called said he was brandishing.

[capnpirate]

As far as I know, there is no brandishing law in DE. Unless you're displaying hostile/angry behavior or doing something that causes people to have reason to believe you're about to fire it, there is no difference whether your firearm is in its holster or in your hand (preferably down at your side, of course. ).

[bluedog46]

thanks for the FYI on brandishing in DE, for the record all those videos were other states, but the points and problems seem to be the same in many cases. There are exceptions like in california you can open carry but i think it has to be unloaded. I assume you are allowed to keep a loaded mag on your hip but dont know.

[Boots]

... I assume you are allowed to keep a loaded mag on your hip but dont know.

Yes, you are.